Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[mattaudio]

Look, as much as I apparently disagree with David on his criteria for transit alignments, I don't want to completely dismiss what he's saying. David, that's actually why I hope you do continue to participate in this.

I agree with most of the critiques by twincitizen and uptownsport, most importantly that it doesn't make sense to bypass regional destinations outside the CBD but in the direction of the line. Second, I really do think it's a shame that the CEI results in crappy alignments, and it's fair to criticize the methodology as well as its outcomes. It would make much more sense for us to build incremental light rail extensions which maximize regional connectivity and network effect, even if it means not going to EP right away. Unfortunately we all know that in a metro full of hundreds of parochial interests and political boundaries, this is not feasible.

I actually think my proposed future plan (which uses the as-planned 3A alignment) would actually take care of this whole issue. Once we actually place an emphasis on providing quality transit to dense areas that would sustain high ridership, even if they are already prosperous areas, then here's how it would work: Build a new LRT line from Penn Ave Station to West End and beyond in the 394 corridor (which also connects to tons of suburban jobs)... then connect Southwest through Uptown by going east from West Lake in the trench, then meeting up with a Nicollet/Central at Nicollet/29th.

The only thing which would be wasted under the 3A plan is the proposed 21st St station (since the segment between Penn and West Lake would become a non-revenue track to connect the two operating districts) but the point has been made plenty that this 21st St station is a waste to begin with.

[UptownSport]

No one needs to defend 3c, there is no 3c.

[UptownSport]

But this argument is really just a form of _ad_hominem_, attacking the methodology rather than talking about the resulting plan. I know that you and others talk about the plan, I'm simply saying that this particular argument doesn't hold water.

ad hominem is a personal attack, you're either it incorrectly (It appears ("attacking Methodology") and I Hope) or believe/claim he's personally attacking you instead of the argument

[woofner]

Guess what? They _can't_. There is *no* reasonable transit option from N. Minneapolis to jobs in the SW suburbs. That's why the Kenilworth alignment is so damn important.

Since only a handful of Northside blocks will be able to reach Southwest LRT stations on foot, how do you propose they are going to transfer to the train to Opus? Are you going to make them walk at least two blocks (more depending on the direction and the station), or are you going to reroute the existing service?

Personally I think the 3A alignment is good too - especially because of Van White - but I also think it's funny to note all the rhetorical gymnastics they have to go through to pretend it is clearly better than 3C.

Speaking of, I noticed in the powerpoint that accompanied the City's DEIS comments that it specifies:

A tunnel will not work at 7th Street due to the Interchange project.

So MNdible is right about what's wagging what. Stunning incompetence on the part of Hennepin County.

[UptownSport]

I'm still not sure exactly what that means- the train must ______ 7th street, then?

[mattaudio]

the train must ______ 7th street, then?

The train must vi***** 7th street.

[MNdible]

From MinnPost,

Decisions on a bridge where Cedar Lake Parkway crosses the rail line have been delayed, Pflaum told council members. He also said a proposed tunnel will not work at Seventh Street near downtown and quite likely would be replaced by a bridge.

[twincitizen]

Eden Prairie's thoughts on the DEIS

Some interesting bits on O&M facility location, integration with Southwest Transit buses, getting Town Center Station closer to the mall (currently planned to be beyond reasonable walking distance) and the desire for little to no P&R space at Town Center and Golden Triangle Stations. The last one caught me off guard, as most suburban planners and politicians seem to have insatiable appetites for parking spaces.

There's also a blurb about potential impacts to TC&W railroad operations and a poorly worded letter by a Carver County Commissioner.

[beykite]

the desire for little to no P&R space at Town Center and Golden Triangle Stations. The last one caught me off guard, as most suburban planners and politicians seem to have insatiable appetites for parking spaces.

Eden Prairie actually has a very well done and comprehensive plan to create a walkable livable "downtown". Also considering how SW station already has a huge P&R station, as will Mitchell, another one at this location would be rather redundant. To Eden Prairie this is the location they want people to be taking the train TO (other than work commuters), not driving there to go somewhere else.

[ECtransplant]

For what? What is the big advantage to having SW LRT go through Uptown? Simply serving a population is not enough. That population is already served *very* well.

Uptown is pitifully served considering it is the densest, most urban neighborhood outside of downtown and it is less than 2.5 miles from the core of downtown. It takes half an hour to get from uptown to the core of the CBD via tranist. In NYC, you can go the over 8 miles from west Harlem to to the World Trade Center in that amount of time via transit.

[mattaudio]

Just to clarify, that was David Green that said it, not me... I think there was some issue with nesting quote tags.

[mnmike]

Comparing anything about transit to NYC is crazy. That is an entirely different animal. Personally...I don't think the 15-20 mins from my place near 34th and Henn(southern end of uptown) to around 9th and Henn is bad at all. Not sure where you are getting 30 minutes?

[mattaudio]

The thing is you can drive that same distance in 8 to 10 minutes. And the buses are packed. At some point it makes sense to have rail to Uptown.

[ECtransplant]

Comparing anything about transit to NYC is crazy. That is an entirely different animal. Personally...I don't think the 15-20 mins from my place near 34th and Henn(southern end of uptown) to around 9th and Henn is bad at all. Not sure where you are getting 30 minutes?

To get from the uptown transit station to Nicollet and 7th typically takes me about 30 minutes. You should be able to get from the core of uptown to the core of downtown in 15 minutes max. There needs to be something that goes directly between the two with no stops or that at least has a dedicated right of way that makes the trip competitive with auto travel times.

[woofner]

^My diagnosis is that you are taking the 17. Next time I recommend taking a 6 or a 12, getting off at 7th and walking a block east. I think some 12 runs make it between 8th & Hennepin and Uptown Transit in 15 minutes, although the 6 takes a few minutes more.

I don't disagree with you about the need to improve trip times, though. I suggest calling your councilmember and county commissioner and demanding Rapid Bus be implemented on Hennepin ASAP. That or you could wait 5 or 6 decades for a subway.

[ECtransplant]

I take the 17 or 6, whichever comes first. I agree the 6 than walking east is often better, but there are too many bottlenecks that can get really backed up on Hennepin. From the 94 bottleneck to Hennepin and 10th can be insanely backed up going into downtown during the morning rush. The 94 bottleneck is bad enough, but then when you throw in the poorly timed light at 10th, where I've sat through 3 cycles of the light on the bus more than once, it really makes the trip a pain. That and the buses are packed during the rush despite still having wait times of up to 8 minutes during the rush -- could easily run a few extra 6s and 12s during the peak.

When it's running, the 12 isn't bad, but for it to be a true "express," it should go uptown transit center > Franklin > MCTC > Hennepin and 7th > the library, with no stops in between. There are too many stops too close together downtown.

[Nick]

[mod="Nick"]Sorry I got a bit overzealous deleting here and realized that the conversation fixed itself on the next page. Fixed itself in that UptownSport clarified that he thought David Greene was playing the race card, so have at that.[/mod]

[beykite]

I hate to interrupt but Minnpost has an article talking about Minneapolis's view of the Southwest LRT line. Seems as though they don't want the freight trains either (big surprise) They do mention that although the tunnel at seventh street won't work, it will likely be replaced by a bridge. They also share Eden Prairies disdain over all the park and rides. Here is the link.

Minneapolis likes Southwest light rail concept but not the current plan
By Karen Boros | 12/05/12

Nobody wants the freight trains.

The City of Minneapolis moved a step closer to endorsing the Southwest Light Rail Line but will not accept a plan (PDF) that includes freight trains, light rail and the recreational trails running through the relatively narrow strip of land known as the Kenilworth Corridor.

The plan to move the freight trains, which currently travel through the Kenilworth Corridor, to a line through St. Louis Park is being strongly opposed by citizens in that community.

“The freight trains will have to be relocated to St. Louis Park,” said Donald Pflaum, a transportation planner from the Minneapolis Public Works Department, as he explained the city’s position on the Draft Environmental Impact Statement for the project to members of the City Council’s Transportation and Public Works Committee...

[David Greene]

Let's get away from alignment for the moment.

Also considering how SW station already has a huge P&R station, as will Mitchell, another one at this location would be rather redundant.

I have a feeling Mitchell is going to go. If we need to cut the budget, that's where to do it. Extra trackage and a station for...what? Eden Prairie city hall? Commuters will have no problem driving a mile to Southwest Station.

Mitchell station also causes some issues with tracks running close to condo buildings, something made clear by residents at the Eden Prairie hearing.

[David Greene]

Uptown is pitifully served considering it is the densest, most urban neighborhood outside of downtown and it is less than 2.5 miles from the core of downtown. It takes half an hour to get from uptown to the core of the CBD via tranist. In NYC, you can go the over 8 miles from west Harlem to to the World Trade Center in that amount of time via transit.

This isn't NYC, it's the Twin Cities and given what we have, Uptown is blessed with an abundance of transit.

I completely agree that our level of transit service metro-wide is pitiful. We need funding for that and I have some hope for the next legislative session. But we all need to show up at the capitol! We can all agree on that!

As for 3C, the LPA document estimates about 13-15 minutes from Uptown to get downtown. I agree that at peak this is a significant savings. At off-peak it really isn't. My experience is that most of my time is spent waiting for the bus, not the actual travel time (though the 17 is really annoying on Nicollet Mall).

I don't see how a 394 LRT really helps anything. The underutilized carpool lanes are already there and it would be more cost-effective to build a _real_ BRT with stations. Not everything has to be LRT.

But the larger point is that access to the western suburbs is not the same as access to the southwestern suburbs. Uptown has that southwestern access with 3A. North Minneapolis does not with 3C.

Travel time is not everything, even in the FTA's analysis and especially in the EPA's analysis.