Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » January 26th, 2017, 9:58 am

I'd rather see both directions on 5th St downtown as part of a larger undoing of the one-way couplet through downtown. This could actually simplify the street geometry around 7 Corners and Cleveland Circle too... Cleveland Circle could basically go away if there was a 5th St to Smith Ave LRT alignment.

Near the river, I think they need to be more deliberate about tying the alignment to the grade-imposed challenges of how to do the river crossing. Of course, I've suggested rebuilding/modifying the existing bridge to be two levels... A new upper deck could provide for LRT ROW and also regional trail connectivity that's at-grade to Fort Snelling and East River Road.

If that crossing was pursued, it then doesn't make sense to try and go below grade at Bloomington Road. Instead, stay elevated above the TH-55 (future US-212) freeway, around the federal building and with a wye tying into the existing Blue Line north of the Ft. Snelling Station. Even the grade of the Blue Line as it approaches the flyover would help allow for the construction of a flying junction here, so less switchwork and less crosslining in operation would be required (this is the fundamental difference between how trains crawl through DTE interlocking, but should be able to fly through the partially-built Target Field interlocking with its planned flying junction.

Some possibly relevant maps I've made over the years:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PFuAq ... sp=sharing (corridor concept incl above river alignment)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yeMe2 ... sp=sharing (downtown STP)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dGnTc ... sp=sharing (MN 55- MN 5 interchange modifications + LRT ROW)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WDky1 ... sp=sharing (5th St access inventory downtown STP)

Somewhat related:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=19D2Xl ... sp=sharing Existing flyover would allow for low cost flying junction at Lake Street station, improving Midtown LRT as a standalone service while also allowing for interlining of service via Blue Line from Lake to VA Medical Center... One seat ride from West Lake / Uptown to Downtown St. Paul

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RIdKH ... sp=sharing Assuming LRT on upper deck of bridge, this plan could connect the bridge with Shepard Road taking advantage of Unisys/USBank site redevelopment. This would allow for an enhanced grid in this neighborhood, and Sibley Plaza redevelopment potential.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2424
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: Saint Paul

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby EOst » January 26th, 2017, 10:10 am

Can't imagine there won't be a vehicle lane in each direction, signed "local/emergency traffic only". Maybe they could build it somewhat similar to the Wash Ave mall at the U, so emergency vehicles can drive on the tracks and not get stuck behind cars accessing the parking garages.
Worth pointing out here that Smith Ave is on the bicycle plan also ("enhanced shared lanes"), as the link from Summit/the 35E trail to downtown. No obvious alternative to it either.

fehler
Rice Park
Posts: 496
Joined: July 30th, 2012, 8:33 am

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby fehler » January 26th, 2017, 10:12 am

Is station infrastructure so expensive that there couldn't be two Fort Snelling Stations, the Blue aligned north-south and the New aligned east-west, with a single bus turn-around and parking area for both?

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » January 26th, 2017, 10:13 am

It's probably more the operational inefficiency than the expense. Imagine you were at Ft. Snelling Station, going to airport or MOA. Which platform has your next train?

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5989
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby MNdible » January 26th, 2017, 11:09 am

Whipple building is presumably a major driver of ridership at Fort Snelling, so not sure that it makes sense to move the station further away from it.

kellonathan
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 179
Joined: July 8th, 2012, 12:25 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby kellonathan » January 26th, 2017, 1:25 pm

I'm still personally infatuated with Alignment #10---using CP spur is a no-brainer---higher potential for shorter travel time and higher reliability. (less grade-crossings/conflicts with vehicular traffic on 7th St, I assume.)

I wonder why we're still struggling between the Ford Spur alignments and MSP/MOA alignments, though. Has anyone considered a potential LRT branch line between 7th St and Ford site/Highland Pk? It shouldn't be that difficult in terms of operational difficulty?

Something like this?
RH : Riverview Mainline (dwtn St.P - MSP/MOA) every 10 mins, Riverview via Ford Branch (Highland Park - dwtn St.P) every 15 mins
NH : Riverview Mainline every 10-15 mins, Riverview Ford Branch shortline (Highland Park - 7th and Madison) every 20 mins
Jonathan Ahn, AICP | [email protected]
Personal thoughts and personal opinion only. May include incomplete information.

mamundsen
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1195
Joined: November 15th, 2012, 10:01 am

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mamundsen » January 26th, 2017, 4:05 pm

What do RH and NH stand for?

I agree, this should be option 10. slam dunk. Then it does feel like a wasted opportunity to connect the Ford Site. Would they ever do just a tram circulator from Madison to Ford on a loop? Rather than having different branches all the way to dwtn St P?

kellonathan
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 179
Joined: July 8th, 2012, 12:25 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby kellonathan » January 27th, 2017, 10:01 am

What do RH and NH stand for?
Sorry, I usually am not a fan of people throwing initialism/acronyms around, but I made that mistake myself.
RH = Rush Hour. NH = Normal Hour (Non-rush)
Jonathan Ahn, AICP | [email protected]
Personal thoughts and personal opinion only. May include incomplete information.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 27th, 2017, 12:21 pm

Yeah while I'm not hopeful for the line to cross the river and hook up to the Blue Line, serving the Ford Site just seems like too big an opportunity to miss. You've got the dedicated ROW, you've got the site in a perfect place to add transit through it now (much more expensive, potentially politically difficult later), you've got near-guaranteed demand via redevelopment (even if literally nothing gets built due to some massive market crash you still have pretty decent trip generators at 4 of the 5 proposed stations - heck, you could even defer Ford Parkway to keep infrastructure simple for now). You've got rail/stations being built all the way from Madison to Downtown with likely day 1 capacity to power 3-car trains every 5 minutes. The biggest challenge in adding service beyond 10 minute headways on this line would be handling the trains in DT St Paul. The branch concept allows us to really maximize the very expensive rail infrastructure from the get go. (to say nothing of making the Midtown connection easier down the line).

Did anyone ever hear anything about the travel time models I asked about upthread?

MattW
Rice Park
Posts: 441
Joined: June 13th, 2015, 5:05 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby MattW » January 27th, 2017, 1:57 pm

Yeah while I'm not hopeful for the line to cross the river and hook up to the Blue Line, serving the Ford Site just seems like too big an opportunity to miss. You've got the dedicated ROW, you've got the site in a perfect place to add transit through it now (much more expensive, potentially politically difficult later), you've got near-guaranteed demand via redevelopment (even if literally nothing gets built due to some massive market crash you still have pretty decent trip generators at 4 of the 5 proposed stations - heck, you could even defer Ford Parkway to keep infrastructure simple for now). You've got rail/stations being built all the way from Madison to Downtown with likely day 1 capacity to power 3-car trains every 5 minutes. The biggest challenge in adding service beyond 10 minute headways on this line would be handling the trains in DT St Paul. The branch concept allows us to really maximize the very expensive rail infrastructure from the get go. (to say nothing of making the Midtown connection easier down the line).

Did anyone ever hear anything about the travel time models I asked about upthread?

RBY, I don't disagree with what you're saying. I feel, however, adding branch lines on the light rail with another river crossing is a pipe dream. A much more feasible option, imo, would be to create a branch line of the A line and have that run south of Highland Golf Course and link at the future Montreal station.

I know that'd screw up headways on the A line... so maybe create a new ABRT line that goes down Ford and keeps heading east-west?

DanPatchToget
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1645
Joined: March 30th, 2016, 1:26 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby DanPatchToget » January 27th, 2017, 2:11 pm

46th Street ABRT between Edina and West 7th going through the Ford Site sounds like a better option than making a big detour for Riverview through the Ford Site and making travel time to the airport and MOA longer.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6368
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » January 27th, 2017, 2:21 pm

Also, the Ford Site already has really strong bus service on Ford Parkway already. The A Line (and the 23 and 46 and 74) all get you over to the Blue Line 46th St station in a snap. Yes, it's all on Ford Parkway, but that's also where the heaviest commercial development of the site and most jobs will be. Everything more than 2 blocks south of Cleveland is all planned as residential. Running rail transit through the Ford site would allow for stations serving that residential development too far from Ford Pkwy to walk, but I really don't think that outweighs everything that is lost by not maintaining that fast MSP/MOA connection. And it doesn't really improve transit much for those on/near Ford Pkwy, who have the above mentioned routes that zip them over to 46th St Station, as well as the 134 express to downtown Mpls and the 70 & 74 to downtown St. Paul (as well as A-Line to Green, of course)

kellonathan
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 179
Joined: July 8th, 2012, 12:25 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby kellonathan » January 27th, 2017, 2:25 pm

Agreed. Riverview Branch Line can (or maybe "should", considering the cost-effectiveness concerns) terminate at Ford & Woodlawn, facilitating easy transfers btwn Riverview LRT and A Line aBRT. If through-routing the branch line trains to dwtn St. Paul is too hard, considering interline schedules and track capacity, I think the branch line should work fine as a shuttle between the Ford Site/Highland Park and 7th & Madison, as long as the LRT transfer at 7th & Madison is well-timed and well-designed.

Ford Site can be one of the most well-connected transit haven neighborhoods, still a rare kind in the Twin Cities area, but I still doubt the usefulness of interlining Riverview LRT with Hiawatha LRT, especially for the trips originating from Ford Site/Highland Park. Considering the travel demand in the area (albeit I'm just guessing---I've not seen or worked with any travel demand models around here), I bet it's more much meaningful to serve dwtn St. Paul with rail, whilst travel demands to dwtn Mpls and MSP/MOA can be covered by A Line and a quick transfer at 46th St.
Jonathan Ahn, AICP | [email protected]
Personal thoughts and personal opinion only. May include incomplete information.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » January 27th, 2017, 4:04 pm

Or, in addition to Riverview rail from MSP/MOA to DT St. Paul...

Arterial BRT from MSP/MOA to Edgecumbe, St. Paul Road, Cleveland Ave, then east down Randolph or Grand to DT St. Paul. It would actually play well with the A Line, provide plenty of St. Paul neighborhoods including Ford Site/ Highland Park and others with MSP and Downtown, and would connect to Riverview on both ends.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby RailBaronYarr » January 27th, 2017, 4:48 pm

Not really arguing for anything here, but I'll just note that my agreement of a Ford Site branch in my earlier post was aimed at terminating somewhere on site, not crossing the river as Riverview by itself to go to MOA (for now). I have stated before I think the need to directly serve people along the Blue Line or Riverview corridor heading to MSP/MOA is overrated based on home/job location pairs along those areas where different service options might make sense. But I get that there's a cultural desire to complete the triangle and people who do want to get to MSP/MOA will be the most vocal about a trip that's 5, 10 minutes longer (even if we could also run them an express bus like I ride on 94 many days between the downtowns without complaining). I don't think a fixed-guideway ont he Ford Site has to skip by the existing commercial and planned job center as much as the map shows, but that's just me. I also think people are discounting how the kludge of using all the existing bus routes that cross the river on Ford/46th or a shuttle from Ford Site to Riverview paired with another transfer if they're coming from anywhere outside the walkshed of those places makes transit very unappealing for what could be a good number of trips. But, I'm also not a transit modeler. I just hope we're not ruling anything for the future.

BigIdeasGuy
Union Depot
Posts: 381
Joined: March 27th, 2013, 8:22 am

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby BigIdeasGuy » January 27th, 2017, 9:07 pm

I'm surprised that LRT has the space to make the 90 degree turn going from Cedar on to 6th but I'll believe the experts on that.

Having driven though the corner of Kellogg and 7th on many nights when there were events at the X, even when there is a less than capacity crowd, I firmly believe that the Smith Ave Transit Mall is a much better option operationally than a pair running on 7th and Smith. With the thousand and thousands of people who all try to leave the X using the 7th and Kellogg intersection plus cars, taxis, Ubers, etc. I don't think it is feasible to operate any type of fix guideway transit line on W 7th during that time. The hospital clearly should have a say in the use of Smith Ave but I hope all parties can come to an agree to use Smith exclusively compared to W 7th.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1983
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby amiller92 » January 30th, 2017, 10:15 am

I've not paid much attention to this at all, but noticed yesterday that three houses along 46th have big "no tracks on 46th" signs.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7752
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » January 30th, 2017, 10:19 am

How about "No More Than Three Lanes On 46th"

matt91486
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 132
Joined: December 28th, 2012, 5:28 pm

Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby matt91486 » February 1st, 2017, 10:33 am

Looking at the alternatives for area D, 46th clearly seems to make the most sense and add the least time to the trip, so hopefully they don't drum up too much support if it ends up going through the Ford site.

User avatar
FISHMANPET
IDS Center
Posts: 4241
Joined: June 6th, 2012, 2:19 pm
Location: Corcoran

Re: Rush Line Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby FISHMANPET » February 13th, 2017, 2:44 pm

I'm hearing reports that people are putting out "no rail on 46th" signs, anyone have any details on that? Is it just people that don't want transit at all, or don't want a train by their house, or something else?


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Scottie and 50 guests