Minneapolis Skyway System

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2295
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby EOst » February 22nd, 2017, 2:20 pm

I don't know who you're arguing with, because nothing that you're saying is a response to what I've argued here. Your latest article isn't even about skyways, but "downtown"!

One (final) time, it is possible for both of the following propositions to be true: 1) there is crime in the skyways that needs to be dealt with, and; 2) much of the anti-skyway entrance panic is motivated not by crime but by racism. It is extremely telling that you haven't even tried to respond thoughtfully to my post about loitering, a point you yourself raised (making sure to get the names right this time!). You're basically engaging in an extended "no true Scotsman" fallacy at this point.

at40man
Rice Park
Posts: 427
Joined: January 3rd, 2013, 6:49 pm
Location: The Saintly City

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby at40man » February 23rd, 2017, 9:42 am

EOst wrote:
February 22nd, 2017, 2:20 pm
I don't know who you're arguing with, because nothing that you're saying is a response to what I've argued here. Your latest article isn't even about skyways, but "downtown"!

One (final) time, it is possible for both of the following propositions to be true: 1) there is crime in the skyways that needs to be dealt with, and; 2) much of the anti-skyway entrance panic is motivated not by crime but by racism. It is extremely telling that you haven't even tried to respond thoughtfully to my post about loitering, a point you yourself raised (making sure to get the names right this time!). You're basically engaging in an extended "no true Scotsman" fallacy at this point.
If we backtrack, amiller92 refused to acknowledge that businesses may have legitimate concerns and went straight for calling people he or she doesn't know racist. That is where I take the issue. THAT is the fallacy. :!:

Did you even bother reading the article beyond the headline? It definitely talks about skyway crime, but not all the statistics are broken down between skyway vs. street crime. I didn't directly respond to the loitering because sometimes it is dubious. Othertimes, it is quite clear-cut. From the article I posted earlier:
On Feb. 7, police were called after receiving reports about a group of about 10 people loitering and smoking marijuana in a skyway near Mears Park.
And the video I posted earlier was another clear-cut case of loitering getting out-of-hand. Is it racist to point out that those teenagers were supposed to be in school at that time, not wandering the skyways and starting fights?

One more time (again): I pointed out why businesses may not be keen on building those street connections. amiller92 said that everyone with concerns is a racist.

*mic drop*

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1759
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby amiller92 » February 23rd, 2017, 3:07 pm

Yes, you've clearly won the day by mentioning a few recent incidents in St. Paul to explain 40 years of documented Minneapolis history

Sidebar: what does video of kids in a half-assed fight have to do with "loitering?"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

nerdljos
City Center
Posts: 49
Joined: November 14th, 2013, 9:49 pm

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby nerdljos » February 23rd, 2017, 4:33 pm

at40man wrote:
February 23rd, 2017, 9:42 am
If we backtrack, amiller92 refused to acknowledge that businesses may have legitimate concerns and went straight for calling people he or she doesn't know racist. That is where I take the issue. THAT is the fallacy.
at40man wrote:
February 23rd, 2017, 9:42 am
amiller92 said that everyone with concerns is a racist.
I read the article, and it was not hard to see the coded racism in the quotes from property owners and business managers. It mirrors the language that is used to describe "loitering" by "people" and "teens", which usually is a stand-in for "being in public", "black people", and if not that, "poor people" or "homeless people". Yes it is racist, it's also classist, yes it is obvious, and yes it happens all the time. Maybe rather than freaking out about "racism" merely being invoked, we should find fault with the racist system that criminalizes public use of space for some people but not others.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2295
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby EOst » February 23rd, 2017, 4:47 pm

at40man wrote:
February 23rd, 2017, 9:42 am
Did you even bother reading the article beyond the headline? It definitely talks about skyway crime, but not all the statistics are broken down between skyway vs. street crime.
"Not all" is an interesting way to say "none." That is, not one of the statistics given in the article breaks out skyway vs. outdoor. Did you read the article?

The sum of anecdotal data in your article tells us about the skyway is the obvious thing that no-one disputes; that crime sometimes happens there. But unless you can demonstrate that crime has actually increased in the skyways since the public entrance opened, all you have is innuendo.
I didn't directly respond to the loitering because sometimes it is dubious. Othertimes, it is quite clear-cut.
You yourself brought it up as one of the major problems in the skyways!!!

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3821
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Silophant » March 26th, 2017, 12:03 pm


QuietBlue
Target Field
Posts: 503
Joined: September 14th, 2012, 8:50 am

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby QuietBlue » March 27th, 2017, 12:34 pm

I'll admit I chuckled at the $50 hat comment.

John21
Union Depot
Posts: 328
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:23 am
Location: 38th Street Station

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby John21 » April 23rd, 2017, 5:01 pm


mamundsen
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1109
Joined: November 15th, 2012, 10:01 am

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby mamundsen » April 23rd, 2017, 8:48 pm

A thought I have... as each road is rebuilt, seemingly from one end of downtown to the other... take out a lane and make a nice big sidewalk with store fronts. In ten years, it will be all he done and we'll have great sidewalks all over town and people will want to be down on the steet.

As it sits now, when I walk from the bus to work, or out to lunch, or work back to the bus, in the skyway I have essentially a very wide sidewalk with people only. Down on the street it's typically half the space and cars are typically rushing to make the red light.

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4290
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby grant1simons2 » April 23rd, 2017, 10:02 pm

My new idea that I'm super proud of and want to share with everyone is that the skyways over Nicollet should be shut down from May-October. If the big argument for not wanting to use the streets is due to bad street design, then why use skyways over a pedestrian/transit mall? Oh but buses and smokers.

One week. Grand re-opening of Nicollet. Temporarily shut down the skyways over it.

We want more people using the mall with more foot traffic, why not force it?

SurlyLHT
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 689
Joined: February 21st, 2017, 3:50 pm

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby SurlyLHT » April 24th, 2017, 7:37 am

I don't like the skyways versus streets argument. Personally, I love the streets and skyways. However, often our skyways are simply a more pleasant place to be. Many of the Downtown sidewalks are not only narrow, but often in bad shape and impeded by continual construction.

The two serve similar purposes, but they're not equivalent. If you were to replace the volume in the skyways with sidewalks they'll need widening and the volume of pedestrians would impede traffic.

A few additional benefits of the skyways:
A)They're managed by building owners and the cost and upkeep isn't place on the taxpayers as much as sidewalks.
B) They're not restrained by the block grid and can move diagonally or cut across a block.
C) Dayton mentioned how Minneapolis isn't as cold as we think it is...but what about snow? Related do we even know if people would transition to the sidewalks...they may just stay in their offices or bring their own food.
D) I see the skyways as street level 2. Minneapolis gets another whole additional level of economic activity from having a skyway system and a street front. If economists somewhere haven't determined the economic benefit of our skyways they should.
E) They are perhaps the quickest way to get around Downtown. Last week I biked from US Bank Plaza to Target. It took me just as long as it does in the skyways with the stoplights.

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3821
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Silophant » April 24th, 2017, 8:49 am

Rolled my eyes again at his implication that he actually would have bought the Macy's building had someone else taken the skyways down. They're privately owned. If he wanted them gone, the only way to do it would be to buy the building and take them down.

*Unless all four Macy's skyways are owned by the buildings at the other end, which is entirely plausible, since they're all newer. He'd still be within his rights to lock the doors at his building's end, though.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1759
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby amiller92 » April 24th, 2017, 9:59 am

SurlyLHT wrote:
April 24th, 2017, 7:37 am
C) Dayton mentioned how Minneapolis isn't as cold as we think it is...but what about snow?
It's not just cold (or snow). Right now, for me, it's allergy season. I spend part of the morning getting over the pollen from my commute, so I'm not going to be eager to go back out into it again at lunch. So that's a few more weeks. Then it will start to get hot, and as while it's true you can put on a parka against the cold, you can't really strip off your work clothes in the heat. Oh and then when it's raining.

Anyway, the anti-skyway crowd tends to talk about a small number of the worst weather days. Which is sorta true, but it's also sorta not.
D) I see the skyways as street level 2. Minneapolis gets another whole additional level of economic activity from having a skyway system and a street front.
I'm a bit of a skyway apologist, but the anti-skyway point is that it's not really a second level of activity because the sidewalk activity is just gone, with the streets given over to cars.

Personally, I think there's at least some marginal additional activity, but I'm open to the idea that it's not worth it for the cost of the deactivated street level.

One thing I sure of, though: just getting rid of skyways alone won't do it. The bigger obstacle is that lack of reason to be on most downtown sidewalks, among buildings that are designed toward their interiors instead of passing pedestrians.
If economists somewhere haven't determined the economic benefit of our skyways they should.
Somehow I do not think any attempt to do this would convince anyone.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1759
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby amiller92 » April 24th, 2017, 10:02 am

Silophant wrote:
April 24th, 2017, 8:49 am
Rolled my eyes again at his implication that he actually would have bought the Macy's building had someone else taken the skyways down. They're privately owned. If he wanted them gone, the only way to do it would be to buy the building and take them down.

*Unless all four Macy's skyways are owned by the buildings at the other end, which is entirely plausible, since they're all newer. He'd still be within his rights to lock the doors at his building's end, though.
Add to that the fact that the building's position and design make it a major hub of pedestrian activity at the skyway level but not on the sidewalks...

Might make you wonder if the issue with operating that store isn't that department stores are a dying business instead of skyways. If it was selling what people on foot downtown wanted to by (generally, food) it would be fine.

rhettcarlson
Metrodome
Posts: 96
Joined: May 19th, 2015, 10:50 pm
Location: Uptown

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby rhettcarlson » April 24th, 2017, 10:24 am

grant1simons2 wrote:
April 23rd, 2017, 10:02 pm
One week. Grand re-opening of Nicollet. Temporarily shut down the skyways over it.
I like your idea, Grant. I think the best case scenario for the next 5-10 years is an occasional closure of the system for a day or so per month in the warmer months. It should probably be framed as an "open streets" day for downtown (maybe even coincide with Open Streets) and not that the skyways are "closed." Any temporary closure for the Nicollet reopening would certainly be a great way to kick start an annual tradition/movement.

If the idea is to gain any traction outside of an idealistic Strib piece there has to be economic/civic benefit shown. A temporary closure is probably the best way display that. It'd just have to be planned around any type of inclement weather to avoid public backlash :)

martykoessel
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 196
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:12 am

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby martykoessel » April 24th, 2017, 10:35 am

Whatever the arguments pro and con, closing the skyways now is impossible.

The skyways are lined with businesses that hold leases and have invested a great deal in building out their locations. Shutting down the skyways that generate their foot traffic would generate a couple of nightmares' worth of lawsuits

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1759
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby amiller92 » April 24th, 2017, 10:43 am

rhettcarlson wrote:
April 24th, 2017, 10:24 am

I like your idea, Grant. I think the best case scenario for the next 5-10 years is an occasional closure of the system for a day or so per month in the warmer months. It should probably be framed as an "open streets" day for downtown (maybe even coincide with Open Streets) and not that the skyways are "closed." Any temporary closure for the Nicollet reopening would certainly be a great way to kick start an annual tradition/movement.

If the idea is to gain any traction outside of an idealistic Strib piece there has to be economic/civic benefit shown. A temporary closure is probably the best way display that. It'd just have to be planned around any type of inclement weather to avoid public backlash :)
The other thing a temporary closure would do is help demonstrate how few decent connections between the sidewalk and skyways there are. It's a pretty easy thing to walk outside to get the building where you want to grab lunch, but it might not be so easy to get up to the skyway level where your lunch place is likely located.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4759
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby David Greene » April 24th, 2017, 10:55 am

Closing the skyways is not going to generate street-level commercial activity when most of he commercial destinations are on level 2. You can't do a traffic study of the skyways like this because there's 50 years of infrastructure working against it. It won't generate useful data.

xandrex
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1358
Joined: January 30th, 2013, 11:14 am

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby xandrex » April 24th, 2017, 11:10 am

It seems like if Eric Dayton is legitimately concerned about the vitality of Minneapolis—and downtown in particular—he could make a bigger impact by pushing for better zoning that requires more street-facing retail. The fact that the new Xcel building lacks any retail presence whatsoever on our pedestrian/transit mall has more of an impact than the fact that the building is skyway connected.

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3821
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Silophant » April 24th, 2017, 12:00 pm

I think we need to define what the actual problem is. Is the problem specifically that all the retail and (non-bar) restaurants are up on the skyway level, and are thus confusing and hidden, or that all such establishments have terrible or non-existent evening and weekend hours, possibly as a side-effect of being in the skyway? I tend to lean towards it being the latter. The former problem is bad for visitors, certainly, but the actual residents (including daytime residents, like office workers and the like) should really be who we're primarily building the city for.

Waving a magic wand, disappearing the skyways, and moving all the inhabitants to the street is certainly the solution to the first problem, but I'm not convinced that it would do anything about the second. Looking at the street-facing, non-bar businesses in the skyway zone (arbitrarily defined as being bounded by Hennepin, Washington, 10th St, and 5th Ave), the only ones I'm aware of that are open past 8 on weeknights are Target and the Nic on 5th Starbucks. Would moving MyBurger down to the street get them to stay open until 10 like their other locations, or would they close at 7 like Five Guys? (I'll admit that they probably would stay open later than their current 2:30.) I guess the point I'm wrapping back around to making is that I think retail will take back off as more people are in downtown 24-7. Either places will see the demand and fill some of these empty storefronts back in, or they'll stay in the skyways and pressure building owners into keeping the buildings open later. As to the ever-present comparison to the North Loop, I'll repeat that the North Loop retail resurgence took off close to a full decade after we started building thousands of residential units there. The downtown core has had half that.


Return to “Minneapolis - Downtown”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests