Future Cars: Electric and Autonomous Vehicles

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David Greene
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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby David Greene » July 10th, 2017, 6:43 pm

I'll have to go back and double-check. I know that we were well over our needs during the summer pre-EV. Putting panels on the garage really boosted the capacity, partially because the usable area on the house is smaller than some other buildings. I think a lot of people don't put them on the garage because of the trenching involved, which of course increases the cost.

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby Silophant » July 10th, 2017, 10:51 pm

Oh, I totally believe that you're getting there, especially with a sizable array and, if I remember correctly, an EV that isn't used for a daily commute.

Really, I think the mental block that keeps a lot of people who would otherwise be all about EVs from getting one is that they realize that it takes 4+ hours to fill the tank (equivalent) from empty and stop right there, without realizing that, unless you're too lazy to spend 30 seconds plugging it in when you get home, the tank is always full, every single time you pull out of the garage. Like, I saw some interview with a Chevy bigwig saying that their goal was to get to 200 miles of range, since that would let the average commuter go a full week on a single charge... and I couldn't figure out why that would matter, unless plugging the car in is such a chore for this hypothetical commuter that they simply must devote an entire Saturday morning to the task.
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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby VacantLuxuries » July 11th, 2017, 8:26 am

I think it really comes down to these companies have no idea how to market a car to anyone who doesn't get hot and bothered by glamour shots of cars driving past redwood trees or zooming by on a test track.

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby David Greene » July 11th, 2017, 8:40 am

I think it really comes down to these companies have no idea how to market a car to anyone who doesn't get hot and bothered by glamour shots of cars driving past redwood trees or zooming by on a test track.
OMG yes.

When we were shopping for our LEAF, we had salespeople actively steer us *away* from it, even though we said up-front that that's what we wanted. I could not believe how much resistance I met from people who did not want to sell us a car we were ready to purchase *that day.* Easiest sale in the world. They kept telling us we wouldn't be happy with it, that we should lease instead of buy because we might not like it and would want to trade it in soon.

Some of this may stem from the fact that the LEAF and EVs in general greatly reduce dealer profit due to the lack of maintenance needed.

I mean, there was definitely ignorance on how to sell it, like not being able to explain charging levels or the whole "it's full at the beginning of the day" thing. No talk about maintenance savings and total cost of ownership reductions. No explanation that not having a gas engine and all of its attendant necessities that have tendencies to break reduces complexity and thus long-term cost.

It was that along with *active resistance* to selling the car.

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby mattaudio » July 11th, 2017, 8:47 am

I've never been in the market for an EV, but I've rolled my eyes plenty at a few car salesmen (yes, they were all men) over the years. Salespeople who kept trying to sell me "cool" or "power" or "luxury" when I knew what I wanted (a boring and efficient and affordable Japanese car, thank you very much). No, I *don't* want a V6 engine, how hard is that to understand?

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby David Greene » July 11th, 2017, 8:49 am

Really, I think the mental block that keeps a lot of people who would otherwise be all about EVs from getting one is that they realize that it takes 4+ hours to fill the tank (equivalent) from empty and stop right there, without realizing that, unless you're too lazy to spend 30 seconds plugging it in when you get home, the tank is always full, every single time you pull out of the garage.
That's definitely part of it. People also overestimate how much they drive.

To be honest, I was completely shocked when our 110V outlet charged the car fully overnight. I was expecting to need an L2 charger. We're going to have 220V put out to the garage when the solar array is installed, since they need to trench anyway. But that's just future-proofing. We don't need it at all today. So that's another expense most EV owners can just forget about for now. As capacities increase, the need for stronger chargers also increases, which is another reason not to buy more EV than you need.

Today, I would probably buy a Bolt, not because we need the range today, but because over time as the battery degrades, we could hang on to the car longer. I am a "run 'em into the ground" kind of car person. The LEAF is only the second car I've bought. So anything that helps us keep a car longer is good because I hate car payments. But most people are not like that. They like to change cars every seven years or so. That being the case 100-150 mile range is perfectly adequate for metro driving. It's also why used LEAFs are a great option.

I'm actually really curious to see how long the LEAF lasts. I expect we'll run out of battery capacity long before anything else critical breaks, but we'll see. I'm encouraged that after 18 months we still haven't lost any bars on the capacity meter. If there's an upgrade to a higher-capacity battery by the time we need one, I might consider it.

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby mattaudio » July 11th, 2017, 9:22 am

FYI if you need to trench to your garage for solar on it... Put your mast on your garage, put your solar equipment in your garage, and put a master distro in your garage. Then trench to your master panel in your house. Then you won't have Xcel lines over your backyard.

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby David Greene » July 11th, 2017, 9:24 am

Ok! I will ask our solar guy about that. Thanks for the tip!

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby mister.shoes » July 11th, 2017, 9:30 am

We had Xcel bury our main line when we built our garage in 2012, but the meter is still on the back of the house. No lines over the backyard is glorious. I also have two 1.5" (I think) conduits running between the house and garage. One holds power for the garage; the other has coax and cat-6 because nerd. I don't think I'd have enough conduit capacity to run the wire needed for solar or EV charging, so...yeah.

This discussion is also making me regret the direction of our garage roof. Running the ridgeline N-S makes adding solar panels a no-go, even on a 10/12 pitch. Unless it's possible to capture enough early morning and late afternoon MN sun to be worth it.
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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby David Greene » July 11th, 2017, 10:07 am

We had Xcel bury our main line when we built our garage in 2012, but the meter is still on the back of the house. No lines over the backyard is glorious. I also have two 1.5" (I think) conduits running between the house and garage. One holds power for the garage; the other has coax and cat-6 because nerd. I don't think I'd have enough conduit capacity to run the wire needed for solar or EV charging, so...yeah.
I'll ask our solar guy about the buried line option too. I hadn't considered things like coax and cat-6, but that's a good idea.
This discussion is also making me regret the direction of our garage roof. Running the ridgeline N-S makes adding solar panels a no-go, even on a 10/12 pitch. Unless it's possible to capture enough early morning and late afternoon MN sun to be worth it.
Yeah, my understanding is that's basically a no-go for solar. Our house has side gables which means most of the roof is unusable for solar but it has a large front dormer that lets us put several panels up there. If we ever move, E-W facing gables would be a requirement along with a garage amenable to solar PV.

One contractor did suggest stands to angle panels to the south on the main roof, but another said that was basically a ridiculous idea, so who knows? Might be worth looking into if it's your only option.

We did have to take down a large voluntary elm over the garage to remove shade, so that's not great but we will plant more trees. Our crabapple also bit the dust because of disease so our backyard went from (literally) almost no direct sunlight to almost no shade (!).

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby FISHMANPET » July 11th, 2017, 11:52 am

Yo taking down mature trees in an urban environment and building an entire garage suited to solar seems like a gigantic pain in the ass, when we can just stick solar panels out in the prairie where they won't disturb anything.

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby Silophant » July 11th, 2017, 1:13 pm

As a heads up, I'm going to move these last couple pages over to the new green living thread in Anything Goes when I get home from work, as we've veered off a ways from future cars.
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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby seanrichardryan » July 16th, 2017, 8:11 pm

FYI if you need to trench to your garage for solar on it... Put your mast on your garage, put your solar equipment in your garage, and put a master distro in your garage. Then trench to your master panel in your house. Then you won't have Xcel lines over your backyard.

Well, if youre trenching you'dight as well get some sewer lines and extra lv innthe ground.
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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby Anondson » August 30th, 2017, 9:26 am


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Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby Anondson » September 6th, 2017, 7:25 pm

House passes legislation to prevent states from outlawing self-driving vehicles.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos ... SKCN1BH2B2

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby Multimodal » November 7th, 2017, 5:05 pm

This seems like sort of a big deal: Bob Lutz (formerly of General Motors) says the end is nigh for cars & car culture:

http://www.autonews.com/article/2017110 ... es-goodbye


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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby Multimodal » November 7th, 2017, 5:09 pm

And then there’s this: Waymo is cutting out (front seat) drivers from their autonomous cars already. (In Phoenix, where there’s no rain or snow, or much of anything.)

Waymo’s Autonomous Cars Cut Out Human Drivers in Road Tests - The New York Times
https://apple.news/AFqun8gAuRiOE3PLiagmYFg


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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby Multimodal » November 7th, 2017, 5:12 pm

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Re: Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby talindsay » November 9th, 2017, 8:06 am


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Future cars / Driverless cars

Postby Multimodal » November 9th, 2017, 8:17 am

Ha ha. Well, as it says, it was the human driver’s error (as it is in virtually every case).

Roads & streets will be much, much safer when computers direct vehicles. It’s almost like we can’t trust humans with speed or attention.


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