C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

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tmart
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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby tmart » March 20th, 2018, 12:45 pm

MNdible wrote:
March 20th, 2018, 11:59 am
Any excuse to trot this out:

Image
I think this tops Ventura's Governor's portrait as the single-greatest image in our state's political history.

Anyway, great news that construction's ongoing. I agree that it's a big enough milestone that it warrants some kind of spectacle, even if this particular form is silly and pointless. With how long our planning processes have gotten and how numerous the delays can be, people often don't realize when we jump from the hypothetical stage to the tangible stage.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby mplsjaromir » March 20th, 2018, 2:26 pm

If a photo opportunity for politicians is part of what it takes to get upgraded bus service, then good.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby talindsay » March 21st, 2018, 7:20 am

FISHMANPET wrote:
March 20th, 2018, 11:15 am
I suspect these events are far more for the people throwing the sand than the people having sand thrown at them.
Ha, nice. I mean, if they were *actually* breaking ground in any meaningful way whatsoever, it wouldn't be so absurd. Given the tremendous amount of digging any project requires, it seems like it would be easy enough to find a place where they could actually remove some dirt that needs to be removed. Sure, one can argue that the earth is nearly frozen right now, but wasting fuel to heat the ground first would still be less ridiculous than carting in sand for them to throw. Ten spades of actual dirt would be an insignificant contribution to the project, but this sand actually has to be carted in and then carted out again, and they're literally sticking shovels in a sand pile. It's kind of embarrassing.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby FISHMANPET » March 21st, 2018, 8:55 am

Last one I went to the "ground" to break was actually a parking lot but I don't know, put Peter McGlaughlin in a backhoe and have him push the button rather than this stupid shovel thing.

Also isn't McGlaughlin kind of ambivalent to a little hostile to the concept of rapid bus? What the hell is he doing getting credit for this?

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby MNdible » March 21st, 2018, 9:44 am

FISHMANPET wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 8:55 am
Also isn't McGlaughlin kind of ambivalent to a little hostile to the concept of rapid bus?
Sure, he's a big LRT booster, but I don't think I've seen anything to indicate he's opposed to BRT. Link?

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby DanPatchToget » March 21st, 2018, 10:19 am

*McLaughlin

Maybe he's like me and hates the generalization that ABRT is on the same level as LRT.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby FISHMANPET » March 21st, 2018, 10:23 am

DanPatchToget wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 10:19 am
*McLaughlin

Maybe he's like me and hates the generalization that ABRT is on the same level as LRT.
An assertion that nobody has made ever?

Meanwhile the pisswater excuse for BRT, the Red Line, continues to carry the same network branding as LRT.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 21st, 2018, 10:48 am

FISHMANPET wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 10:23 am
Meanwhile the pisswater excuse for BRT, the Red Line, continues to carry the same network branding as LRT.
In my opinion, I don't think that will ever change. The infrastructure is already there, and it possibly could get expanded and increased frequency again in the future.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Silophant » March 21st, 2018, 11:00 am

I tend to agree. My hope, though, is that it gets extended to downtown once the Orange Line is up and running, reducing the capital costs down to just buying additional buses (and maybe inline stations at 66th and/or Portland).

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby tmart » March 21st, 2018, 11:04 am

I mean, the name "Arterial Bus Rapid Transit" is inaccurate at best and pretty baldly misleading IMO. It has few of the characteristics of BRT, and BRT itself is only really passable as rapid transit when it meets a set of very high standards that we've never committed to in Minnesota. IMO the better comparison is that it's a really awesome replacement for local bus service and the standard level of service we should have on our top-tier urban bus routes; comparing it to rapid transit is muddying the waters.
FISHMANPET wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 10:23 am
An assertion that nobody has made ever?
Among people like us who pay a lot of attention to transit, sure, but politically this comparison happens all the time. The distinction between ABRT and BRT is nonexistent outside of Metro Transit and, let's say, Metro Transit Enthusiasts. :lol: It only takes a couple minutes on the Strib website to find comments, letters, articles, editorials, and even state legislators comparing mixed-traffic bus service to actual rapid transit. Just look at this article, where the headline refers to the A Line as "rapid bus service" and which goes out of its way to make cost comparisons to SWLRT. And like you said, we have a pisswater excuse in our own system reinforcing the false comparison.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Silophant » March 21st, 2018, 11:19 am

Well, for better or for worse, Rapid Bus is Metro Transit's branding for the letter lines, though they aren't officially called aBRT anymore.

On the other end, I don't think it's totally unreasonable to put the Orange Line and Gold Line in the same category as the LRT lines from a branding perspective. They'll occasionally get tied up in general traffic, sure, but so do the Blue and Green Lines.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby tmart » March 21st, 2018, 11:47 am

Silophant wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 11:19 am
Well, for better or for worse, Rapid Bus is Metro Transit's branding for the letter lines, though they aren't officially called aBRT anymore.

On the other end, I don't think it's totally unreasonable to put the Orange Line and Gold Line in the same category as the LRT lines from a branding perspective. They'll occasionally get tied up in general traffic, sure, but so do the Blue and Green Lines.
Gold Line, at least, I agree on. That's mostly dedicated transit infrastructure (though I do have some concerns that the non-dedicated part is potentially the most crucial part) with similar station configurations and service levels.

Orange Line is another Red Line in terms of planning and implementation. It won't be a disaster in the same way, because lots of people actually use buses on 35W, and because the dedicated downtown ramp alone is a big need. But it's a highway project first that kinda-sorta tacked on some secondary transit usage to get a color from Metro Transit. Like the Red Line, it is not consistent with the level of service on the LRT lines and would not be classified as BRT by the standards manual.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 21st, 2018, 12:03 pm

tmart wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 11:47 am
Silophant wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 11:19 am
Well, for better or for worse, Rapid Bus is Metro Transit's branding for the letter lines, though they aren't officially called aBRT anymore.

On the other end, I don't think it's totally unreasonable to put the Orange Line and Gold Line in the same category as the LRT lines from a branding perspective. They'll occasionally get tied up in general traffic, sure, but so do the Blue and Green Lines.
Gold Line, at least, I agree on. That's mostly dedicated transit infrastructure (though I do have some concerns that the non-dedicated part is potentially the most crucial part) with similar station configurations and service levels.

Orange Line is another Red Line in terms of planning and implementation. It won't be a disaster in the same way, because lots of people actually use buses on 35W, and because the dedicated downtown ramp alone is a big need. But it's a highway project first that kinda-sorta tacked on some secondary transit usage to get a color from Metro Transit. Like the Red Line, it is not consistent with the level of service on the LRT lines and would not be classified as BRT by the standards manual.
I think the Orange Line is running every 10 minutes for most of the day. Making Level of Service just as high as Blue/Green.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 21st, 2018, 12:07 pm

Bakken2016 wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 12:03 pm
tmart wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 11:47 am
Silophant wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 11:19 am
Well, for better or for worse, Rapid Bus is Metro Transit's branding for the letter lines, though they aren't officially called aBRT anymore.

On the other end, I don't think it's totally unreasonable to put the Orange Line and Gold Line in the same category as the LRT lines from a branding perspective. They'll occasionally get tied up in general traffic, sure, but so do the Blue and Green Lines.
Gold Line, at least, I agree on. That's mostly dedicated transit infrastructure (though I do have some concerns that the non-dedicated part is potentially the most crucial part) with similar station configurations and service levels.

Orange Line is another Red Line in terms of planning and implementation. It won't be a disaster in the same way, because lots of people actually use buses on 35W, and because the dedicated downtown ramp alone is a big need. But it's a highway project first that kinda-sorta tacked on some secondary transit usage to get a color from Metro Transit. Like the Red Line, it is not consistent with the level of service on the LRT lines and would not be classified as BRT by the standards manual.
I think the Orange Line is running every 10 minutes for most of the day. Making Level of Service just as high as Blue/Green.
My bad it is 10 mins during rush hours, and 15 mins the rest of the day. Which is pretty good in my opinion. Since there are places where LRT only has 15 min frequencies.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby tmart » March 21st, 2018, 12:24 pm

Bakken2016 wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 12:03 pm
tmart wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 11:47 am
Silophant wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 11:19 am
Well, for better or for worse, Rapid Bus is Metro Transit's branding for the letter lines, though they aren't officially called aBRT anymore.

On the other end, I don't think it's totally unreasonable to put the Orange Line and Gold Line in the same category as the LRT lines from a branding perspective. They'll occasionally get tied up in general traffic, sure, but so do the Blue and Green Lines.
Gold Line, at least, I agree on. That's mostly dedicated transit infrastructure (though I do have some concerns that the non-dedicated part is potentially the most crucial part) with similar station configurations and service levels.

Orange Line is another Red Line in terms of planning and implementation. It won't be a disaster in the same way, because lots of people actually use buses on 35W, and because the dedicated downtown ramp alone is a big need. But it's a highway project first that kinda-sorta tacked on some secondary transit usage to get a color from Metro Transit. Like the Red Line, it is not consistent with the level of service on the LRT lines and would not be classified as BRT by the standards manual.
I think the Orange Line is running every 10 minutes for most of the day. Making Level of Service just as high as Blue/Green.
Sorry, "level of service" was a bad choice of terminology because it means something specific and you're right that they're planning high frequency. But it's not rapid-transit-like in that it runs in mixed traffic, weaves between lanes, has stops 2 miles apart in urban areas, and all kinds of other things that violate both the international definition of BRT and the expectations LRT riders would have for METRO-style transit. It's not at all the same kind of transit, nor the same planning process, as the Gold Line.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby Bakken2016 » March 21st, 2018, 12:52 pm

tmart wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 12:24 pm
Bakken2016 wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 12:03 pm
tmart wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 11:47 am


Gold Line, at least, I agree on. That's mostly dedicated transit infrastructure (though I do have some concerns that the non-dedicated part is potentially the most crucial part) with similar station configurations and service levels.

Orange Line is another Red Line in terms of planning and implementation. It won't be a disaster in the same way, because lots of people actually use buses on 35W, and because the dedicated downtown ramp alone is a big need. But it's a highway project first that kinda-sorta tacked on some secondary transit usage to get a color from Metro Transit. Like the Red Line, it is not consistent with the level of service on the LRT lines and would not be classified as BRT by the standards manual.
I think the Orange Line is running every 10 minutes for most of the day. Making Level of Service just as high as Blue/Green.
Sorry, "level of service" was a bad choice of terminology because it means something specific and you're right that they're planning high frequency. But it's not rapid-transit-like in that it runs in mixed traffic, weaves between lanes, has stops 2 miles apart in urban areas, and all kinds of other things that violate both the international definition of BRT and the expectations LRT riders would have for METRO-style transit. It's not at all the same kind of transit, nor the same planning process, as the Gold Line.
I think MNDOT needs to raise the price of MNPass lane on 35W, this would make sure that buses are getting better priority in the lane.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby twincitizen » March 22nd, 2018, 6:11 pm

MNdible wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 9:44 am
FISHMANPET wrote:
March 21st, 2018, 8:55 am
Also isn't McGlaughlin kind of ambivalent to a little hostile to the concept of rapid bus?
Sure, he's a big LRT booster, but I don't think I've seen anything to indicate he's opposed to BRT. Link?
He refused to pay for aBRT with CTIB money. People hoped that would change with Hennepin County recently doubling the sales tax. But no, the refusal to fund aBRT continues. Under McLaughlin’s orders aBRT goes to the back of the line after SWLRT, BLRT, Hennepin’s share of Riverview, and the operating costs for all of the above. Based on cost effectiveness per rider and the relative quickness with which these lines can be planned and opened, aBRT should be at the FRONT of the funding queue, not stuck begging for scraps from the legislature.

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Arterial Rapid Bus

Postby LRV Op Dude » March 22nd, 2018, 8:35 pm

Blog: Old-Twin Cities Transit New-Twin Cities Transit

You Tube: Old, New

AKA: Bus Driver Dude

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Re: C Line - Penn Avenue North Rapid Bus

Postby Tcmetro » September 23rd, 2018, 7:48 am

I don't think this was shared with the forum, but Metro Transit made a decision about the Route 19 service after the C Line starts. They will proceed with Option A which:
  • Consolidates the H and Y branches to use Thomas Ave between Lowry and 42nd during rush hours
  • Extends the new Thomas branch to Brooklyn Center
  • Continues the trunk service along Penn Avenue
https://www.metrotransit.org/route-19-service-planning


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