RBC Gateway (Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 519'

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
HiawathaGuy
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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 14th, 2018, 2:55 pm

Multimodal wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 2:11 pm
alexschief wrote:Or just have people walk outside for a couple years.
This is the only logical response.
Unless of course, you're the one spending millions of dollars (enter Four Seasons & RBC) and want to have your brand new building connected to the rest of the downtown skyway grid. RBC employee currently have skyway access, perhaps they were surveyed by management to see if that was something they'd like to keep. Or maybe the only 5 Star hotel chain in Minnesota thinks it's worth having for a multitude of reasons.

I think some of you live in strange bubbles.
When you build your own office building or hotel, by all means, don't connect it to the very extensive and heavily used grid that ultimately makes Minneapolis unique & easy to navigate during our brutal winter months.

amiller92
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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby amiller92 » November 14th, 2018, 3:04 pm

Makes you wonder what a hotel like that would value being connected too. It's reasonably direct, but not close, to get to the Fifth Street Towers, US Bank Plaza, HCGC, City Hall, Capella Tower and the federal courthouse. And eventually the Wells Fargo Towers and US Bank Stadium.

It's way out of the way to get to IDS or anything else on Nicollet.

Basically it's useful for getting to the east side of downtown, but you're a hotel on the north/west side and the shopping (such that it is) and entertainment are south/west or north of you.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby amiller92 » November 14th, 2018, 3:06 pm

HiawathaGuy wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 2:55 pm
I think some of you live in strange bubbles.
When you build your own office building or hotel, by all means, don't connect it to the very extensive and heavily used grid that ultimately makes Minneapolis unique & easy to navigate during our brutal winter months.
I use the skyways every weekday and even I think connecting to Marquette Plaza (1) will look absolutely terrible, (2) may not get that much use, and (3) will definitely get almost no use if there's a better connection via the library.

They should get assurances that the library connection will get built, perhaps an option to come back and add the Marquette connection if it doesn't happen in a timely manner and then wait for that to happen.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby twincitizen » November 14th, 2018, 3:12 pm

MNdible wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 10:41 am
Didn't see it either, but I understand that as things currently stand, a skyway to the library only connects you to the library and nowhere else. Unless the second half of the Opus block gets developed concurrently with the Gateway. I'd assume the library path is still their preferred routing.
^THIS.

I don't think they *want* to build a skyway over Cancer Survivor's Park, as the library-Opus/Ritz block connection is strongly preferred (but still non-existent). They will build a skyway over Cancer Survivor's Park if they *have to*, as skyway connection is a hard requirement of both Four Seasons and RBC. They will build the shitty undesired connection to keep their two main tenants on board vs. not building the project at all.

At this point, avoiding the terrible long skyway over the park is 100% on Opus to get moving on their plans for that remaining 1/2 block. As of today, Opus still hasn't made a decision on residential vs. office, as far as any of us know. If 365 Nicollet leases up quickly, I'd guess Opus will go with more residential, maybe even quickly enough to coincide with Gateway's opening. If 365 leasing is slower than expected, they'll probably keep shopping the site to office users looking for new class-A space, and there won't be a building completed in time for RBC/hotel opening.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby mattaudio » November 14th, 2018, 3:23 pm

Why not work with Opus and fund a temporary skyway from the library to 365?

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby MNdible » November 14th, 2018, 4:16 pm

mattaudio wrote: Why not work with Opus and fund a temporary skyway from the library to 365?
I'm sure there's some solution out there that works, but remember that you're asking two competing developers to work with each other.

Also, the actual skyway over Nicollet from the library to the Opus block would likely need to be the permanent skyway. And it will cost a non-inconsequential amount of money to build, a cost that would typically be born by Opus.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby Oreos&Milk » November 14th, 2018, 7:13 pm

mattaudio wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 3:23 pm
Why not work with Opus and fund a temporary skyway from the library to 365?
Yes, because hotel guests otherwise may get confused and light-headed with all the skyway direction options. If they dare allow two skyway connections. Forcing hotel guests down to the street level is the best option. That way they never want to come back and visit Minnesota again! Great way to keep the streets less clogged with cars, ubers, and tourist! ;)

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby Oreos&Milk » November 14th, 2018, 7:16 pm

Silophant wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 2:51 pm
Sounds like no one from the Four Seasons has spent enough time using the skyway system to realize what a crappy connection that is. It's a looong way out of the way to go to get to anything besides parking ramps.
Four seasons guests sound like "those" Wal-mart customers who hog the power scooters and don't want to walk... maybe we need to invent a drive thru hotel? Crap, there goes my billion dollar hotel idea! DARN!

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby Minneboy » November 14th, 2018, 10:30 pm

If anything instead of building over Cancer Survivors Park, tunnel under it. It would really destroy any visual beauty left from the original Federal Reserve.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby seanrichardryan » November 14th, 2018, 10:35 pm

MN Fats wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 11:32 am
Four Seasons confirmed per Finance & Commerce.

https://finance-commerce.com/2018/11/fo ... way-tower/
and strib-

http://www.startribune.com/four-seasons ... 500508402/
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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby amiller92 » November 15th, 2018, 9:49 am

Oreos&Milk wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 7:13 pm
Yes, because hotel guests otherwise may get confused and light-headed with all the skyway direction options. If they dare allow two skyway connections. Forcing hotel guests down to the street level is the best option. That way they never want to come back and visit Minnesota again! Great way to keep the streets less clogged with cars, ubers, and tourist! ;)
Thing I learned as a hotel guest (back when I lived in DC): the skyways will be closed by the time you're done with your business dinner, so you better not rely on them too much. It was pretty cold that night too.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby HiawathaGuy » November 15th, 2018, 2:35 pm

Minneboy wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 10:30 pm
If anything instead of building over Cancer Survivors Park, tunnel under it. It would really destroy any visual beauty left from the original Federal Reserve.
Not sure you've reviewed the planning documents... this would be pretty inconspicuous, in terms of CSP. And previous messages upthread mention that there's already parking and vault space under the park, which would make tunneling difficult.
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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby grant1simons2 » November 15th, 2018, 3:28 pm

This will directly block the remaining viewshed left of ING and the Grain Belt sign. I don't argue for views much, but this is all too wrong.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby Oreos&Milk » November 15th, 2018, 7:39 pm

amiller92 wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 9:49 am
Oreos&Milk wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 7:13 pm
Yes, because hotel guests otherwise may get confused and light-headed with all the skyway direction options. If they dare allow two skyway connections. Forcing hotel guests down to the street level is the best option. That way they never want to come back and visit Minnesota again! Great way to keep the streets less clogged with cars, ubers, and tourist! ;)
Thing I learned as a hotel guest (back when I lived in DC): the skyways will be closed by the time you're done with your business dinner, so you better not rely on them too much. It was pretty cold that night too.
you got me there.. they should be open later nothing St. Paul crazy like 2AM or 4AM.. :lol: Just midnight weekdays.. and maybe... just MAYBE a bit later on the weekends. I think a lot of the government segments like the convention center is already midnight. Even around they Hilton and Churchill. I think too.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby seanrichardryan » November 15th, 2018, 10:29 pm

grant1simons2 wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 3:28 pm
This will directly block the remaining viewshed left of ING and the Grain Belt sign. I don't argue for views much, but this is all too wrong.
The skyways ruin ALL view-sheds in Minneapolis. One of their greatest downfalls.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

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Nathan
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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby Nathan » November 16th, 2018, 8:05 am

seanrichardryan wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 10:29 pm
grant1simons2 wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 3:28 pm
This will directly block the remaining viewshed left of ING and the Grain Belt sign. I don't argue for views much, but this is all too wrong.
The skyways ruin ALL view-sheds in Minneapolis. One of their greatest downfalls.
I would disagree with that, I think it adds to the view. It's an architectural and urban feature that exists in very few cities. My friends who visit always think it's cool seeing them. They're not high enough to block skyline views and they're fun to see in numbers looking down a street. It's a flat city with basically no geography above the horizon line, what are they blocking? Half the fun of a good urban environment is discovering things as well. We're used to a Minneapolis where you can see for blocks of surface parking... it's going to be all different scenery anyways, and that's fun fun because there are new things to be discovered around every corner, not just laid out in front of you.

(In this case getting close to the river and having the option to connect with the library, I would obviously never suggest the connection through the old federal reserve as a great option but I'm more concerned about the feeling in cancer survivors park and the light impact etc etc.)

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby BBMplsMN » November 16th, 2018, 9:11 am

Nathan wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 8:05 am
(In this case getting close to the river and having the option to connect with the library, I would obviously never suggest the connection through the old federal reserve as a great option but I'm more concerned about the feeling in cancer survivors park and the light impact etc etc.)
On the flip side, it might actually make people aware that Cancer Survivors Park exists. It's always been this hidden place behind (or on top of) walls. Seeing it from above in the skyway might make people aware that it's there. That being said, I hope the skyway goes through the library instead.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby NGaneshan » December 12th, 2018, 11:25 am

This is all fascinating. We just signed a lease in 365 Nicollet, moving from DC. So this is interesting both in terms of general perspective (skyways good/bad) as well as practical, since we picked downtown particularly for proximity to work and restuarants etc.

Wondering why there isn't a shorter sky route going west from Nic on 5th or the Opus block through library all the way towards North Loop? It's strange to go east and circle through 5th Street Towers to get back west towards Target Field (I work close to there).

Also would be good for ANY additional skyway access for 365 instead of only through Exel.

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby mattaudio » December 12th, 2018, 1:38 pm

The Public Library was built for future skyway connections to the south (Xcel block), east (365 block), and north (RBC/Gateway block).

There's no easy provision for a skyway on the Xcel block unless that Midtown Parking Garage gets redeveloped connecting to the Lumber Exchange skyway on 5th St.

To the west, the ABC skyway along 2nd Ave terminates at the C ramp on the NW corner of 4th St and 2nd Ave N. But it would be a tough sell to span the two blocks over to Hennepin, since the area is lots of small warehouse buildings that are also a protected district. http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/www/gro ... 275513.pdf Not sure we'd want a skyway launching through the alley next to the Fine Line...

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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Postby amiller92 » December 12th, 2018, 1:40 pm

Welcome! You will find skyways, and especially adding new ones, to a be a very controversial topic, especially among the sorts of folks who participate here.

On the one hand, skyways draw people away from the street, thereby reducing street activity: http://www.startribune.com/skyway-avoid ... 401524615/

Also, moving all those people off the public sidewalk and into private or at best quasi-public space degrades the public realm and put in place barriers to participation for those who are relatively more marginalized. There's a good old Bill Lindeke post on this, but I wasn't able to put my finger on it. Suffice to say that if you read everything tagged skyway here: https://tcsidewalks.blogspot.com/search/label/skyways and here: https://streets.mn/?s=skyway&submit= you'll be an expert.

Meanwhile, people who live and work downtown tend to like them for their convenience and climate control, and property owners want them because people like them.


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