Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[Hero]

I'm starting to think it would have been better to add bicycle and walking paths along the rail line and deleted City West. It isn't much further to Opus station from the Optum building and both stations adjacent have parking lots so I'm not sure who would drive past one of those to reach City West.

Speaking of odd locations for stations. What is the deal with 21st, Bryn Mawr and Basset Creek? Surrounded by parkland and freeways doesn't give a lot of room for TOD (I'm curious if the NIMBYs would allow a tower at 21st). I could see Basset Creek having some ridership for Dunwoody or the sculpture gardens but if that station was by the Basilica I bet the ridership numbers would have been at least doubled.

[VacantLuxuries]

There have been a number of Bassett Creek redevelopment proposals and I imagine the next time one surfaces, now that the train is under construction instead of just theoretical, it’ll be an easier sell.

The 21st was really a connection to the parks system up until the 2040 plan opened the door to making the area around the station lightly denser with triplexes. But we’ll have to see how that plays out now that it feels like certain elements of 2040 that were supposed to be allowed by right are going to be litigated by a less progressive planning commission.

[alexschief]

There may never be any serious travel demand for the Bryn Mawr Station, but given the neighborhood's geographic isolation, there will be some decent benefit to providing high quality transit access. Unfortunately the project scope doesn't include improved pedestrian connections over the highway, which will likely be a big issue until whenever the Penn Ave S bridge is rebuilt. When that happens, traffic volumes at that interchange are so low (8,700) that I think reducing the bridge to just one vehicle lane in each direction with much wider sidewalks an a bike path would all be completely justified.

On the other hand, the Basset Creek Station has potential similar to the Central Corridor's Prospect Park Station. Future development on the Linden Yards parcels is totally possible and as mentioned above will probably become more serious as the line actually approaches completion. The connection to the Dunwoody College of Technology will be useful. So too will be the connection to the Minneapolis Impound Lot (by definition, many people traveling there will not have access to a car!), and that site (and adjacent bus garage) may ultimately be a prime redevelopment opportunity as well. Meanwhile, the area south of Glenwood Avenue is developing quickly. A 325 unit proposal was submitted to the city just last week for the site at 250 Fremont Ave N.

[Hero]

I agree Basset Creek has the most potential of the three stations. But within a half mile we have Bryn Mawr Park, Parade park and the ROW for I394, I94 and freight rail so a significant portion of the land can not be developed. Although the impound lot and surrounding area do look intriguing. Could be a miniature Ford plant style redevelopment?

Taking a second look a Bryn Mawr station i'm liking it even less. The ridge to the south prevents easy access to the station. According to Google maps a large number of homes to the south can be reached quicker from 21st than Bryn Mawr. Maybe it would have been better to not build this one and shave 2 minutes off everyone's commute.

Probably pure fantasy but wouldn't it be something to have a building like Eleven or the Carlyle or LPM built on Upton Ave next to 21st? I think it would be a nice landmark when kayaking around the chain of lakes.

I almost included Royalston station in my list. Not because I don't see potential but because it is just a .4 mile walk from target field station. How close is to close for LRT stations?

[Tiller]

Half a mile is an OK distance for a LRT station.

[Qhaberl]

I definitely agree. I think. 4 miles is OK for a light rail station. It would be really nice if they could get rid of the building with the Sears portrait studio and re-develop that entire lot just to the west of the station. I feel like that station has a lot of potential.


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[Hero]

Adding stations also adds time. If South Minneapolis had as tightly packed stations as the four in Bloomington it would add quite a bit of time to a trip from downtown to the airport.

[Silophant]

Having been a reasonably frequent RTD (Denver) rider at one point, I'd prefer that we err on the side of too many stations over too few - I also did a ton of e-scootering, since my workplace, less than two miles from downtown, was adjacent to the LRT tracks but more than a mile from a station in either direction. 0.4 miles from Target Field to Royalston is a little closer than ideal, but it's better than having 1.25 miles between TF and Van White, and there's not really a better location for a station anywhere in that stretch.

Hennepin and Nicollet, now, there's a pair of stations that are too close together.

[VacantLuxuries]

Adding stations also adds time. If South Minneapolis had as tightly packed stations as the four in Bloomington it would add quite a bit of time to a trip from downtown to the airport.

End-to-end trip time is not the primary selling feature of a light rail system. It'll be possible to ride from Eden Prairie to St. Paul with the green line extension, but realistically, there will be very few who do that. The point is all the shorter connections and trips that can be simultaneously made with one high-capacity system, and that requires more stations than an express.

One of the few concessions Minneapolis got out of this route was the guarantee that it would keep all its stations through cost-cutting measures, and having public transit directly interface with our trail and park system is a great thing for access, even if there isn't massive TOD potential at those stations.

Hennepin and Nicollet, now, there's a pair of stations that are too close together.

In the fantasy maps world where it's possible to spend a billion in transit money on a project that only touches Downtown Minneapolis, I imagine we'd end up sacrificing the Hennepin station in order to have enough room to get underground for a downtown transit tunnel.

[daveybabymsp]

Everyone talks about the routing problem with this line, and while I agree that it would be better to have the light rail go through uptown, I think an under discussed thing holding the current routing back is zoning. Specifically the zoning in ward 7 (bryn mawr and 21st street stations).

Yes there is a small amount of land south of 394 designated for high density in the 2040 plan, but Penn Ave north of 394 will be a 5-10 minute walk from the station and is designated as… interior 3 (3 story max, minimal lot combining). This area should allow at least 6 story buildings, probably taller.

And the land use around the 21st street station is just pathetic. Across the street from a beautiful beach, steps away from a light rail station, and it is zoned for small scale residential (interior 2).

It’s possible that developers may be able to apply for a comp plan change and build something bigger near these stations, but it will be an uphill battle against neighbors/Lisa Goodman.


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[VacantLuxuries]

While I agree that north of 394 would benefit from different zoning to take better advantage of its proximity to light rail, I'm honestly fine with 21st St. Station being the equivalent of the Minnehaha/50th Station on the Blue Line. It's where people will be able to take transit directly to a crown jewel of our park system.

It's serving a purpose even if that purpose isn't maximizing development potential.

I doubt there will ever be anything denser than a triplex next to 21st. And that's fine, since brownfield sites near Royalston and Bassett Creek are going to more than make up for it with the Transit 30 zoning.

[uptownbro]

I agree keeping the 21st St station more or less the same (just with more triplex's) is a good thing. People want to come to the lakes area as each lake is different in terms of people and energy and having this is a good balance to the lake st station.
Re zoning north of 394 will be needed at some point

[daveybabymsp]

Looking at the 2040 plan, interior 2 is described as “typically applied… in the areas in between transit routes, and on select streets with intermittent local transit service”. That doesn’t exactly describe the parts of kenwood directly adjacent to the light rail station. I get that some people appreciate the quiet of kenwood, but it frustrates me to see the city aggressively upzone around transit everywhere except for where the million dollar mansions are. Building higher density near light rail stations will inarguably increase light rail ridership and reduce VMT per capita.

[VacantLuxuries]

"Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best"

That we've already secured three unit rentals by right in this area is already a massive win by American standards.

There are better stations to fight for more aggressive zoning than this one. Hell, there are better places in Ward 7 to pick an upzoning fight with Lisa Goodman than this station area.

[Tyler]

Would love if that strip of Upton was redeveloped along the lines of Corridor 3, OR1. Is there a current purpose to the park land there?

[Tyler]

Im talking about 2031 and 2043 upton

[MNdible]

Psst, the thing that's keeping anything from being developed over here isn't the zoning, it's the land value.

[StandishGuy]

I used to work in Loring Park and had a client who worked in a building on Royalston near the former Lee's Liquor Lounge. It was surprisingly close, particularly to the Laurel Village area, where 12th Street ends and Royalston begins. I walked over many times to drop stuff off and it sure didn't take very long. The biggest problem was the crossing at Hawthorn/ 12th St where motorists entered I394. Anyways, the number of folks in Loring Park who will actually be relatively close to a LRT station will increase.

[Hero]

Having been a reasonably frequent RTD (Denver) rider at one point, I'd prefer that we err on the side of too many stations over too few - I also did a ton of e-scootering, since my workplace, less than two miles from downtown, was adjacent to the LRT tracks but more than a mile from a station in either direction. 0.4 miles from Target Field to Royalston is a little closer than ideal, but it's better than having 1.25 miles between TF and Van White, and there's not really a better location for a station anywhere in that stretch.

Hennepin and Nicollet, now, there's a pair of stations that are too close together.

If more stations are better why does North Minneapolis only receive three in the three miles between Target Field and Robinsdale? It just seems weird to place the same amount of stations in half the distance surrounded by parkland and freeways.

[Hero]

Psst, the thing that's keeping anything from being developed over here isn't the zoning, it's the land value.

Judging by how much people pay for a condo in Eleven I bet land value wouldn't be a problem at 21st if it could be zoned transit 10. I bet the penthouse views would be amazing.