Nicollet-Central Streetcar

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talindsay
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby talindsay » February 11th, 2013, 8:37 am

(note the low-floor entry - presumably we would have the same thing here in Minneapolis given our ADA compliance craziness. This makes the stops themselves especially innocuous.)
Right, because making things easy for the disabled is crazy. The low-floor even entry is a definite benefit even for those of us who don't fall under ADA.

mattaudio
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mattaudio » February 11th, 2013, 9:19 am

I still cannot find a concise reason why Nicollet-Central was chosen over Hennepin-University. Ridership? K-mart redevelopment opportunity? ROW compatibility?

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trkaiser
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby trkaiser » February 11th, 2013, 9:30 am

I'd assume the K-mart site may have something to do with it, but I'd also assume the redevelopment potential of Central Avenue in Northeast was also a factor. Something down University-4th sure would make a lot of sense.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby UptownSport » February 11th, 2013, 10:40 am

Helsinki, thanks AGAIN,
linky is broke; not a station, but B E A U T I F U L
Image
I still cannot find a concise reason why Nicollet-Central was chosen over Hennepin-University. Ridership? K-mart redevelopment opportunity? ROW compatibility?
Hennepin is sooo busy, a train would just add to mess, and streets are complicated at Dunwoody.

Isn't there a bus barn on Nicollet and Lake???

But one doesn't prevent the other ...

mattaudio
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mattaudio » February 11th, 2013, 10:44 am

I guess I'd rather see Hennepin over Nicollet to allow for future high capacity transit underneath Nicollet :)

Personally I'd love to see Hennepin largely closed to through traffic (the Levinson idea) to provide for dedicated ROW. But unfortunately this is not politically palatable and the public would lump together "streetcars" with "war on cars." Unfortunately, there's not a reason to remove through traffic on Hennepin until there's a competing use of the right of way. Not sure I see a solution here, but I can dream.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby twincitizen » February 11th, 2013, 11:08 am

RE future high capacity N-S tunnel somewhere in the area: Wouldn't it make more sense to dig up Blaisdell instead of Nicollet, or Aldrich instead of Lyndale, if you catch my drift? I wish a Blaisdell tunnel had been discussed from the start for SWLRT...much less disruption to businesses (& utilities?)while retaining pretty much all of the same functionality of the corridor.

RE Hennepin: I don't think it would be out of this world to restrict one lane in most of the corridor to right turns, bikes, and buses. Something HAS to give on the slow bus speeds between Downtown & Uptown. That unacceptable transit situation cannot continue in its current form. There are far busier streets in Chicago that are one lane of traffic in each direction. I think it would be far more palatable to lose a lane of traffic than on-street parking, and I'd agree that the parking is more valuable to the community than a 2nd lane of traffic. And surprise: Hennepin's not a county road, so I believe the city can do what they want here. You just need a councilmember or two with balls (or ovaries) of steel. We will never get people out of their cars if the 6 is that goddamn slow AND cars are given that much preferential treatment.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby twincitizen » February 11th, 2013, 11:14 am

RE bus barn at Nicollet & 32nd (UptownSport), yes there is a bus garage here. And yes, you are correct that on the surface it seems to make sense as the eventual streetcar barn, given that Midtown and Nic-Central appear to have some momentum. However...the garage is currently the smallest in Metro Transit's system and actually cannot even handle 60' articulated buses. Nicollet Garage is currently only equipped to handle 40' buses, so that could present a problem for 66' streetcars. Also, if Metro Transit would sure like to keep operating 6s, 21s, etc out of this garage. Heywood is already overburdened, and you will add tons of running time costs if more urban locals have to operate from South Garage or elsewhere out of the city's core.

Converting Nicollet Garage to Streetcars would be a huge upfront and ongoing cost to our transit system...only one of the many reasons to support Rapid Bus instead :)

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mattaudio » February 11th, 2013, 12:18 pm

What if there were center running streetcars on Hennepin, with center island platforms? This would also reduce left hand turns which would slow down the inside lanes. I think this would only work if we dedicated the inside lanes for streetcars, at least at the stations.

I just think it would be amazing if we could use Hennepin as dedicated ROW, but then recreate the grid and use the triangular pockets (such as Colfax/24th) as stations with nice plazas like we see in Portland.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby helsinki » February 11th, 2013, 12:54 pm

(note the low-floor entry - presumably we would have the same thing here in Minneapolis given our ADA compliance craziness. This makes the stops themselves especially innocuous.)
Right, because making things easy for the disabled is crazy. The low-floor even entry is a definite benefit even for those of us who don't fall under ADA.
Of course; I completely agree. Didn't mean to offend. Low floor entry is an unqualified good and access for the handicapped is also. The only benefit to those trams where you have to clamber up the steps is that they have more seating.

(Anyway, true 'compliance craziness' only occurs when unsightly concrete ramps are tacked on to historic facades.)

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby helsinki » February 11th, 2013, 1:01 pm

Helsinki, thanks AGAIN,
linky is broke; not a station, but B E A U T I F U L
Image
I still cannot find a concise reason why Nicollet-Central was chosen over Hennepin-University. Ridership? K-mart redevelopment opportunity? ROW compatibility?
Hennepin is sooo busy, a train would just add to mess, and streets are complicated at Dunwoody.

Isn't there a bus barn on Nicollet and Lake???

But one doesn't prevent the other ...
Thank you. But that actually is a station in the photo you've posted. Very functional, but not without style - unpretentious, understated style (almost Minnesotan, I would venture to say).

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 11th, 2013, 1:10 pm

Helsinki, thanks AGAIN,
linky is broke; not a station, but B E A U T I F U L
Image
I still cannot find a concise reason why Nicollet-Central was chosen over Hennepin-University. Ridership? K-mart redevelopment opportunity? ROW compatibility?
Hennepin is sooo busy, a train would just add to mess, and streets are complicated at Dunwoody.

Isn't there a bus barn on Nicollet and Lake???

But one doesn't prevent the other ...
Thank you. But that actually is a station in the photo you've posted. Very functional, but not without style - unpretentious, understated style (almost Minnesotan, I would venture to say).
I agree the underlying principles of the design are "Minnesotan." Sadly, do we have anywhere in our cities that look that amazing? I would be thrilled if any of our streets started redeveloping to resemble something so functional and beautiful.

talindsay
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby talindsay » February 11th, 2013, 2:10 pm

Yes, Helsinki would be a fabulous model for Minneapolis: the main trunk is subway but otherwise highly-capable streetcars run all over the city, sometimes in dedicated ROW and sometimes not. The system is easily understood, with more LRT-like stations at major transfer points (the railroad station and the harbor, for instance) and simpler, less conspicuous stations elsewhere. I posted many pictures of Helsinki on the old minnescraper site.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Jez » February 11th, 2013, 3:34 pm

Helsinki, thanks AGAIN,
linky is broke; not a station, but B E A U T I F U L
Image Hennepin is sooo busy, a train would just add to mess, and streets are complicated at Dunwoody.

Isn't there a bus barn on Nicollet and Lake???

But one doesn't prevent the other ...
Thank you. But that actually is a station in the photo you've posted. Very functional, but not without style - unpretentious, understated style (almost Minnesotan, I would venture to say).

I agree the underlying principles of the design are "Minnesotan." Sadly, do we have anywhere in our cities that look that amazing? I would be thrilled if any of our streets started redeveloping to resemble something so functional and beautiful.
Sometimes I wish more American cities would look to Euro cities & towns to see how they develope their city/town centres. So many European city downtowns look like that, lots of street retail, use of authentic, timeless materials, use of lights etc to brighten up those dull northern European evenings.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby woofner » February 12th, 2013, 12:50 pm

We all knew this already, but a presentation to the Transportation Public Works Committee drives home that streetcar is a given here. It lists the project purpose(s) ("approved by Policy Advisory Committee 10/25/2012" after the last set of public meetings) as to:
-improve transit connectivity
The only possible reason to include this is to justify going through the Kmart site. Otherwise the proposals follow the same routes as existing service, with no net change to connectivity. In fact, by limiting stops they are reducing connectivity to non-transit destinations, which makes this a somewhat bumbling way to justify Kmart redevelopment.
–enhance the attractiveness of transit service
By using a vague word like attractiveness they are clearly angling for a "people prefer trains" argument. All my comments at the public meetings emphasized speed, since frequency is already relatively good in the corridor. When they eventually recommend streetcars, I will go after them on this once, since faster service is more attractive than slower service, even if it's delivered on a bus.
–catalyze development through an investment in transit infrastructure within the Nicollet-Central Corridor.
I look forward to their proof of this, since I've never seen a study that contrasts the relative attractiveness to developers of comparable transit facilities of each technologies. Obviously the politicians already believe that rail is better on this one, though. So why are we wasting time and money on an AA?

[Edited to add the link to the presentation]
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trkaiser
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby trkaiser » February 12th, 2013, 2:16 pm

I'll be at this meeting tonight in NE - and hope to have some pics/notes to share... I'll keep an eye out for any discussion of why this is better than a bus. Your (and other) arguments make a lot of sense for BRT over streetcar, but I can't help my excitement over this streetcar. More than just serving locals, it will be very nice to have a major transit spine running right through the heart of the city. It will make out-of-towners more apt to explore, and should be able to take some cars off the road for all the people who would love a train but avoid a bus. I love them all, and am not saying this is justification for a streetcar, but I am excited about it. It's just money, right? ;)

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby helsinki » February 12th, 2013, 3:16 pm

We all knew this already, but a presentation to the Transportation Public Works Committee drives home that streetcar is a given here. It lists the project purpose(s) ("approved by Policy Advisory Committee 10/25/2012" after the last set of public meetings) as to:
-improve transit connectivity
The only possible reason to include this is to justify going through the Kmart site. Otherwise the proposals follow the same routes as existing service, with no net change to connectivity. In fact, by limiting stops they are reducing connectivity to non-transit destinations, which makes this a somewhat bumbling way to justify Kmart redevelopment.
–enhance the attractiveness of transit service
By using a vague word like attractiveness they are clearly angling for a "people prefer trains" argument. All my comments at the public meetings emphasized speed, since frequency is already relatively good in the corridor. When they eventually recommend streetcars, I will go after them on this once, since faster service is more attractive than slower service, even if it's delivered on a bus.
–catalyze development through an investment in transit infrastructure within the Nicollet-Central Corridor.
I look forward to their proof of this, since I've never seen a study that contrasts the relative attractiveness to developers of comparable transit facilities of each technologies. Obviously the politicians already believe that rail is better on this one, though. So why are we wasting time and money on an AA?

[Edited to add the link to the presentation]
I am curious - how would a streetcar reduce connectivity? With stops every 2 blocks, you can never be more than one block away from a stop (granted, spacing is a bit wider towards the ends).

But people really do prefer trains. Why fight that? Would the marginal time savings from enhanced bus service really trump the superior product users would receive with streetcars?

And it genuinely is nicer to live / work / sit outside next to a tram rather than a bus line - for two simple reasons: they are quiet and they don't emit fumes. Everyone wants to hear themselves think and breathe fresh air. Streetcars facilitate that in a high density transit corridor.

For my part, I think the urban quality and transit potential of these corridors is better served by supporting a streetcar here. We shouldn't be looking for super-sonic speed on the cheap when it comes to Nicollet and Central. Instead, we should be considering what will, over the long term, tightly bind these potentially pedestrian-friendly thoroughfares more closely to downtown and to each other, while making the street-scape a pleasant environment in which people will want to spend their time.

If that sounds too foo foo for clear-eyed and hard-nosed transit realists, I still contend that in the realm of bean-counting and unit-shifting the streetcar still proves it's worth.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 12th, 2013, 4:28 pm

I am curious - how would a streetcar reduce connectivity? With stops every 2 blocks, you can never be more than one block away from a stop (granted, spacing is a bit wider towards the ends).

But people really do prefer trains. Why fight that? Would the marginal time savings from enhanced bus service really trump the superior product users would receive with streetcars?

And it genuinely is nicer to live / work / sit outside next to a tram rather than a bus line - for two simple reasons: they are quiet and they don't emit fumes. Everyone wants to hear themselves think and breathe fresh air. Streetcars facilitate that in a high density transit corridor.

For my part, I think the urban quality and transit potential of these corridors is better served by supporting a streetcar here. We shouldn't be looking for super-sonic speed on the cheap when it comes to Nicollet and Central. Instead, we should be considering what will, over the long term, tightly bind these potentially pedestrian-friendly thoroughfares more closely to downtown and to each other, while making the street-scape a pleasant environment in which people will want to spend their time.

If that sounds too foo foo for clear-eyed and hard-nosed transit realists, I still contend that in the realm of bean-counting and unit-shifting the streetcar still proves it's worth.
I think these are the things that we have been missing from our cities and places since they were torn up. And the reasons given for buses - speed, flexibility in use on other routes, lower up-front costs, etc were all valid to a number cruncher that looked at the reality of people wanting cars and reduced transit volume and said buses were the best route to go (although it could be said that purposeful disinvestment in transit system quality, frequency, etc helped their decline).

I agree that the long-term operation/maintenance of buses is higher than streetcars, perhaps not enough to outweigh the initial capital. But certainly the resulting difference in a 20-year cost model could be justified by 1) permanence of the rail lines solidifying a neighborhood and helping development 2) environmental benefits of not running diesel (or other) buses on the roads, 3) societal benefits of noise reduction and pollution reduction, and 4) that people do prefer to ride on rails compared to buses. We're talking about competing with the car here. And if that means a sexier, quieter, cooler operation at a slightly higher price tag, I'm for it.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby twincitizen » February 12th, 2013, 10:02 pm

Let's be honest right now that this streetcar line is probably never going to run from 46th & Nicollet to Central & 40th NE. There definitely is demand for high frequency service out that far (and beyond actually), but not high capacity. The "starter" segment will be Franklin to the river, tops. The city wants this sooo bad, they're not going to wait for the Kmart thing to resolve itself before stumbling forward.

I could possibly get on board with this if City leaders would just be honest about it. If we're doing this for development/tourism/pride/whatever, let's do a fareless downtown streetcar from roughly Central & Hennepin NE to Nicollet & Grant and call it a day. Maybe extend it over I-94 to Franklin when development beckons it. Hell maybe even Lake Street someday down the line. Use Rapid Bus for the rest of the corridor for actual mobility improvements from 66th Street in Richfield all the way up to 53rd & Uni in Fridley (as called for in the aBRT plan).

Thoughts?

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trkaiser
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby trkaiser » February 13th, 2013, 7:12 am

The plan for the starter corridor is Lake Street through downtown to East Hennepin. I'm not sure what you're so skeptical about. There's money out there, and if Dayton's transit tax increase goes forward this should be near the top of the list.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby TWA » February 13th, 2013, 8:04 am

I know nothing has been approved or announced, but what is everyone's best educated guess for when we may see the first streetcar rolling down a minneapolis street (or greenway)?


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