Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

[Hero]

I'd be in favor of the regional transit district continuing but also creating the possibility to do what Washington did in passing SB 5528. Allowing areas to have enhanced service zones with increased taxes to fund local service improvements. I could see a district of mpls, st paul, Brooklyn center, Richfield, Columbia heights, and Maplewood forming that are willing to pay higher taxes for better transit in there backyards. While still having the larger region fund projects proportionally as exists today.

The urban core is already paying more in taxes than it receives so why add additional taxes on to it? If we want to encourage efficient use of land and infrastructure why discourage it by adding taxes? Shouldn't we discourage sprawl by charging true costs to bad land uses? For context Wells Fargo Center sits on one acre of land with property tax of 9.3 million which is half the budget for the city of Wayzeta.

[gopherfan]

Provide feedback before Sep 30th online, both map comments and their survey within the map (right-side orange button) on final alignment to Target Field.

https://app.publiccoordinate.com/#/projects/BLRT/map

[thespeedmccool]

Looks like they've decided to spit the alignment at Broadway and 21st. I really, really wish they hadn't decided this -- I think splitting it is the kind of decision that makes transit needlessly illegible just so we can sorta avoid a minor political inconvenience.

In time, we'll definitely be wishing we hadn't decided to split it, fully reconstruct two streets instead of one, and make transit worse in North Minneapolis than it could be.

[HiawathaGuy]

Looks like they've decided to spit the alignment at Broadway and 21st. I really, really wish they hadn't decided this -- I think splitting it is the kind of decision that makes transit needlessly illegible just so we can sorta avoid a minor political inconvenience.

In time, we'll definitely be wishing we hadn't decided to split it, fully reconstruct two streets instead of one, and make transit worse in North Minneapolis than it could be.

Did you look at the survey? One of the questions was literally about that option and which you'd prefer. I don't think they've made any final decisions on that alignment yet.

[Trademark]

Looks like they've decided to spit the alignment at Broadway and 21st. I really, really wish they hadn't decided this -- I think splitting it is the kind of decision that makes transit needlessly illegible just so we can sorta avoid a minor political inconvenience.

In time, we'll definitely be wishing we hadn't decided to split it, fully reconstruct two streets instead of one, and make transit worse in North Minneapolis than it could be.

Did you look at the survey? One of the questions was literally about that option and which you'd prefer. I don't think they've made any final decisions on that alignment yet.

Also elevated options are still being considered on Broadway!!!! LEAVE SOME COMMENTS TO SUPPORT THIS!!!! Higher speed trunk lines are so crucial!

[VacantLuxuries]

Also elevated options are still being considered on Broadway!!!! LEAVE SOME COMMENTS TO SUPPORT THIS!!!! Higher speed trunk lines are so crucial!

It's for this reason that it baffles me that they're still considering meandering through North Loop to reach Washington. It's like they've never even taken the Blue Line through Bloomington before.

[Trademark]

Also elevated options are still being considered on Broadway!!!! LEAVE SOME COMMENTS TO SUPPORT THIS!!!! Higher speed trunk lines are so crucial!

It's for this reason that it baffles me that they're still considering meandering through North Loop to reach Washington. It's like they've never even taken the Blue Line through Bloomington before.

I think it could be a great route if it was elevated for part of the way south of 15th avenue to target field.

My second choice would be the 21st avenue and Broadway avenue alignment route across 94. Turn it into a one lane one way in each direction on 21st and Broadway with a two way bike path on broadway connecting to Golden Valley Road to calm the area. The ramp from 94 is already at grade to intersect with 21st right there.on the west side and the ramp is farther north on the east side. This could set up a station on Lyndale and Broadway.

[thespeedmccool]

Looks like they've decided to spit the alignment at Broadway and 21st. I really, really wish they hadn't decided this -- I think splitting it is the kind of decision that makes transit needlessly illegible just so we can sorta avoid a minor political inconvenience.

In time, we'll definitely be wishing we hadn't decided to split it, fully reconstruct two streets instead of one, and make transit worse in North Minneapolis than it could be.

Did you look at the survey? One of the questions was literally about that option and which you'd prefer. I don't think they've made any final decisions on that alignment yet.

I looked at the comment map, which seems to suggest they've gone with the split alignment.

[Tcmetro]

Packet from today's CAC/BAC meeting:

https://metrocouncil.org/getdoc/8984546 ... sItem.aspx

Looks like they are going to narrow the route options down to light rail and traffic on Broadway or light rail on 21st. To connect to downtown, they are considering Lyndale and the I-94 East options. The surveys they conducted show the I-94 East and the Broadway routings have the most public support, but the sample size is 66 and 33 respectively.

[Silophant]

Truly embarrassing if they choose the objectively worse routing option by their own metrics because a few dozen people whined in a survey.

[Trademark]

If they have to choose I-94 east I at least like that they added my idea of bridging the light rail across 94 directly onto 21st Ave North. Less intersections mean better performance on 21st instead of in the middle of Broadway where it will get stuck at traffic lights.

[Trademark]

On the way to the Community meeting over North.

[Bakken2016]

On the way to the Community meeting over North.

how was it?

[Trademark]

A lot of pushback on Lyndale there were a good number of people who lived in Lynpark voicing concerns about lack of ridership, the loss of the 22 bus, emergency access with the side running concept and too much property taking with the middle running concept.

Heard from the developer and owner of Broadway liquor on Penn and Broadway who was extremely mad because he claimed it would ruin the pedestrian nature of the area. Also said he would never develop affordable housing again after a third of his tennents not paying. And was planning a 6 story luxury apartments across the street from it. Was especially concerned about the suburban access to his liquor store claimed that a u turn would destroy all his business and ruin the area like University did. Also said that European cities would never run a train through a commercial area.

Honestly its feeling like the planners want Lyndale but the community will likely prevail in getting I-94 East chosen. If that alignment is chosen I hope there's a real push for adding a Lyndale station.

[Bakken2016]

A lot of pushback on Lyndale there were a good number of people who lived in Lynpark voicing concerns about lack of ridership, the loss of the 22 bus, emergency access with the side running concept and too much property taking with the middle running concept.

Heard from the developer and owner of Broadway liquor on Penn and Broadway who was extremely mad because he claimed it would ruin the pedestrian nature of the area. Also said he would never develop affordable housing again after a third of his tennents not paying. And was planning a 6 story luxury apartments across the street from it. Was especially concerned about the suburban access to his liquor store claimed that a u turn would destroy all his business and ruin the area like University did. Also said that European cities would never run a train through a commercial area.

Honestly its feeling like the planners want Lyndale but the community will likely prevail in getting I-94 East chosen. If that alignment is chosen I hope there's a real push for adding a Lyndale station.

Lack of ridership and loss of the 22 bus, what laughable concerns. There is plenty of transit ridership in that area, and the 22 bus is not going anywhere, it still has to serve Lyndale north of Broadway, and the only way it can do that is to travel on Lyndale between Plymouth and Broadway.

[grant1simons2]

>Also said that European cities would never run a train through a commercial area.

This is the funniest part of it all. Here are all of the cities that have trains running through their shopping districts;

∞

[Tom H.]

"Would ruin the pedestrian nature of the area" and "Concerned about [loss of] suburban access" are kind of contradictory concerns, no?

[alexschief]

I also went to the Blue Line Extension public open house on Broadway. I learned a lot from the meeting. There were about twenty to thirty members of the public who attended, enough that there were productive conversations going on everywhere but not as much as you would hope given a project of this magnitude. I’m worried that if attendance at future meetings and virtual meetings doesn’t encompass more people then you will have a large group of folks who come out at the eleventh hour and say “nobody told us…” The Hall Park neighbors were well-represented and already knew the project team by name.

A few small observations and then one big observation at the end:

1. They are 99.5% going to pick the Lyndale N routing and reject the East I-94 routing. Only when you look at the spread maps does it become clear how ridiculous and impractical the East I-94 alternative would be. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that it could cost $50+ million more than the Lyndale N alternative. It requires significant segments on fill with retaining walls and other segments on structure. Operationally it is also way worse, because it is longer, has more curves, and the East I-94/Plymouth Ave station location is worse than the Lyndale N/Plymouth Ave one (although neither will get high ridership; it is not possible to put a station closer to the North Loop because of the limitations placed on the project by other stakeholders, e.g. the Mpls Fire Dept). Whatever they need to do to placate the Hall Park neighbors, they can do for a lot less than what it would cost to build the East I-94 alternative.

2. The station at Emerson/Fremont is not going to be between those two streets as I hoped. This is because there is not enough space between the two streets (about 365 feet, trains are 300 feet long, plus ramps and a gore on either side) for a full station. The station will be one block to the east instead, taking advantage of Dupont Avenue not running on through Broadway.

That means longer transfers between the Blue Line and the southbound D Line. This actually may not be the end of the world because these lines are somewhat duplicative. Blue Line and D Line riders are both either coming from or heading towards downtown or the mall. Where the different groups of riders live may be different, but their primary destinations may be largely similar.

3. The project will have signal priority but not full preemption through North Minneapolis. I pressed Dan Soler on this a bit, complaining about Green Line trains stopping at 280 to wait for one car to pass. My interpretation is that they are fairly confident that they can resolve most issues with priority, and that there are technical challenges and resistance within the City signaling department that make full preemption not likely. I’m not thrilled about it, but I’m not sure it’s a hill worth dying on.

4. Here’s the big observation: this project is going to involve a lot more takes than I anticipated. At each of the major crossings, there is a need for a left turn lane. That left turn lane cannot be fit within the current width of Broadway without either cutting the sidewalks down to nothing or taking a property if it contains a building built to the lot line. Many of these takes would affect low-use or abandoned lots, but some would not. For example, the buildings opposite the meeting site, from 1104 to 1112 Broadway, would be takes. So too would be the KMOJ building and the Olympic Café building at Broadway and Penn (adjacent to the C Line stop with the big flowers). Takes would occur regardless of whether the Broadway or the 21st Ave alignment is chosen for the segment east of N Irving Ave. In fact, the 21st Ave alignment would have a comparable amount of takes to the Broadway alignment (and probably comprising less in overall market value). That surprised me, and changed my perspective from being very pro-Broadway (21st Ave would require one extra signal) to being fairly agnostic on the question.

I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing. Broadway is one of the most disinvested corridors in the city, and the project does not pose a problem for any of the new development that is just starting to be built on the corridor. But here’s the rub: when this project is complete, the Met Council is going to be the single biggest landowner on the most important corridor in North Minneapolis. This presents an enormous opportunity and a profound responsibility. In terms of development impact of the acquired properties alone, I believe this project will be more meaningful to North Minneapolis than the UHT. The Met Council absolutely has to ensure that this corridor is redeveloped at transit supportive densities, with a mix of incomes, and ample commercial space. They cannot allow taken properties to remain vacant long after the LRT is completed in the anticipated timeframe of 2028-2030.

That means, in my mind:
- They should create a separate development corporation to oversee the redevelopment of these lots, and they should create that corporation and hire its director within the next two years, with work beginning soon after the route is finalized.
- They should set aside a large pot of money, at least $100 million initially, to help subsidize high density mixed income development on these sites and ensure that there is developer attention right away.

[Trademark]

A lot of pushback on Lyndale there were a good number of people who lived in Lynpark voicing concerns about lack of ridership, the loss of the 22 bus, emergency access with the side running concept and too much property taking with the middle running concept.

Heard from the developer and owner of Broadway liquor on Penn and Broadway who was extremely mad because he claimed it would ruin the pedestrian nature of the area. Also said he would never develop affordable housing again after a third of his tennents not paying. And was planning a 6 story luxury apartments across the street from it. Was especially concerned about the suburban access to his liquor store claimed that a u turn would destroy all his business and ruin the area like University did. Also said that European cities would never run a train through a commercial area.

Honestly its feeling like the planners want Lyndale but the community will likely prevail in getting I-94 East chosen. If that alignment is chosen I hope there's a real push for adding a Lyndale station.

Lack of ridership and loss of the 22 bus, what laughable concerns. There is plenty of transit ridership in that area, and the 22 bus is not going anywhere, it still has to serve Lyndale north of Broadway, and the only way it can do that is to travel on Lyndale between Plymouth and Broadway.

Also I remembered there were concerns of school buses queuing up and stopping traffic, the addition of a traffic light on 14th avenue slowing down traffic, and they said that a planner told them the 22 wouldn't be able to fit onto Lyndale if it was side-running, but I don't think that's accurate. Concerns about kids running onto the tracks with the school right there. A lot of this is people thinking its just a train to move the suburbs through our area and outside planners and commenters from places like Apple Valley don't know what to do in our area.

I do think that they should look into removing bike lanes from Lyndale in that stretch to reduce the width of the road, and the width of the property takings maybe putting in a bike boulevard on Aldrich.

[Trademark]

I also went to the Blue Line Extension public open house on Broadway. I learned a lot from the meeting.

I might have seen you there lol.

1. They are 99.5% going to pick the Lyndale N routing and reject the East I-94 routing. Only when you look at the spread maps does it become clear how ridiculous and impractical the East I-94 alternative would be. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that it could cost $50+ million more than the Lyndale N alternative. It requires significant segments on fill with retaining walls and other segments on structure. Operationally it is also way worse, because it is longer, has more curves, and the East I-94/Plymouth Ave station location is worse than the Lyndale N/Plymouth Ave one (although neither will get high ridership; it is not possible to put a station closer to the North Loop because of the limitations placed on the project by other stakeholders, e.g. the Mpls Fire Dept). Whatever they need to do to placate the Hall Park neighbors, they can do for a lot less than what it would cost to build the East I-94 alternative.

From a planner's perspective I agree that it is probably the choice, but at what point is it the planners choice and at what point does it become a more political choice. That second reason makes me think that I-94 East will be chosen.

2. The station at Emerson/Fremont is not going to be between those two streets as I hoped. This is because there is not enough space between the two streets (about 365 feet, trains are 300 feet long, plus ramps and a gore on either side) for a full station. The station will be one block to the east instead, taking advantage of Dupont Avenue not running on through Broadway.

That means longer transfers between the Blue Line and the southbound D Line. This actually may not be the end of the world because these lines are actually somewhat duplicative. Blue Line and D Line riders are both either coming from or heading towards downtown or the mall. Where the different groups of riders live may be different, but their primary destinations may be largely similar.

When this project is complete, the Met Council is going to be the single biggest landowner on the most important corridor in North Minneapolis. This presents an enormous opportunity and a profound responsibility.

Great point