Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

[mulad]

I think there's a lot of value in removing the ban, even if (perhaps especially if) there are particular spots along the existing track alignment that have issues, since those should be studied in good faith. I believe it's a pretty broad ban at the moment, and probably blocks any attempts to find alternative alignments in the wider corridor that could help fix the curvature or other problems.

The general issue is that it had been intended back in the day to become an electric "interurban" line that was more like a streetcar, and was designed with a narrower right-of-way than what a steam-powered line would have had. I think it does still have at least a good 60-foot dedicated space throughout, with other places more like 100 feet, so I imagine it's wider than it looks for most folks.

I think the freight realignments that had been proposed as part of SWLRT looked at some of what might be needed, and I recall there were some possibilities that included putting the tracks up on berms to reduce the number of intersections crossed at-grade, and there were worries because that would apparently cause property takings -- however, the planners never clarified what that meant. Some were making it sound like whole blocks would need to be torn down, but when I looked at one area, the berm would only potentially be affecting people's back yards, where they had garages and sheds at varying distance from the tracks.

Along the Green Line light rail route, I recall that hundreds of properties were technically "condemned" merely to shave a few inches or feet off of their lot boundaries, even though the only significant structure I'm aware of being torn down for the project was the old Bremer Bank building in downtown St. Paul.

I guess that's a long way of saying that we should be cautious about where criticisms about opening up the whole route for study are coming from, as they could easily be blowing things out of proportion.

[mattaudio]

I can't imagine Dan Patch as a branch of SWLRT. It *could* make sense as a regional rail link between existing lines at Northfield and Savage to the Iron Triangle near the West End to bring passenger trains to Downtown Minneapolis.

Imagine passenger rail from the metro to Sioux Falls via Mankato/Worthington, Des Moines or beyond via the Spine Line, and Rochester via the CP connection in Owatonna (yes it would be great to have a direct corridor, but tracks via Owatonna already exist).

I assume any commuter rail needs to go directly to downtown Mpls, or at least not out of the way to SPUD on the way to Mpls. I think regional intercity rail could be a little more flexible, but should still connect to Minneapolis either as a through-route to SPUD or as a terminal regardless of a SPUD connection.

Without Dan Patch, these Sioux Falls, Des Moines/KC, and Rochester connections could approach SPUD today via their UP lines. But they would need to through-route to Minneapolis to have the best chance of success. With Dan Patch, the lines would instead meet at Savage (requiring a new track for the direct Mankato/Sioux Falls movement) and would also require the Iron Triangle connection once studied for SWLRT from Dan Patch to BNSF's Wayzata Sub west of West End.

Advantages to this idea are that suburban stations could serve these intercity routes, such as a West End station or a SWLRT connection or a park and ride along Hwy 13 in Savage. This would help drive ridership on the intercity lines. These lines could also through-route Target Field to SPUD, or through-route to other services like Duluth or St Cloud. The biggest challenge would probably be getting BNSF to play along between Target Field and Dan Patch.

[DanPatchToget]

So has the gag order finally been lifted? From what I've read the House and Senate are getting a decent amount done in transportation, so I'm hoping at the very least lifting the gag order is included even if there's no funding for a new Dan Patch study.

[Silophant]

That's correct, the gag orders on both Dan Patch and Rochester/Ziprail were lifted.

[Korh]

I'm happy for the dan patch gag order being lifted, but still think ziprail has a snowball's chance in hell of happing (at least the true HSR 220mph proposal) regardless unless they can extend it to Chicago.

[Trademark]

I'm happy for the dan patch gag order being lifted, but still think ziprail has a snowball's chance in hell of happing (at least the true HSR 220mph proposal) regardless unless they can extend it to Chicago.

Ya the 220 mph proposal will likely never happen. But for a new greenfield corridor something between 110-150 is very possible depending on if US-52 is used or the old rail line to Dodge Center.

[commissioner]

Unless Mayo/Rochester throws money toward Ziprail (highly doubtful) I don't see that happening (at least not in my lifetime).

[Oreos&Milk]

I'm happy for the dan patch gag order being lifted, but still think ziprail has a snowball's chance in hell of happing (at least the true HSR 220mph proposal) regardless unless they can extend it to Chicago.

Ya the 220 mph proposal will likely never happen. But for a new greenfield corridor something between 110-150 is very possible depending on if US-52 is used or the old rail line to Dodge Center.

I'd be happy with just building a 70 MPH line. to Rochester. I think it's important to build something faster than holding out for a fantasy that may or may not be achieved. We can always upgrade it later to improve the times.

As for Dan Patch, that is exciting news. Northfield has been investing and working hard to renavate their train station in downtown Northfield paired with such a beautiful thriving downtown the train line that connects downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul with downtown Northfield is going to be such a wonderful thing!

I truly believe such a train line could really bring Northfield into the boom of the development that comes with being a suburb.

Heck, I will even be as bold as saying I think Northfield should have TWO train stations! One downtown and one North of downtown in the farmlands. Tons of cheap developable land could be rezoned to higher density and build an entire urban community and double or triple the size of Northfield in the next 20 years. I mean why not? Rural living in a highly walkable community but on a high frequency (even if its only 4 trains a day) train line that permits commuting to work for those who are able to work 80% remotely but need to be in the office only a day or two a week would be a great opportunity.

Although, maybe I'm a bit optimistic in my vision of what could be..

[Trademark]

I'm happy for the dan patch gag order being lifted, but still think ziprail has a snowball's chance in hell of happing (at least the true HSR 220mph proposal) regardless unless they can extend it to Chicago.

Ya the 220 mph proposal will likely never happen. But for a new greenfield corridor something between 110-150 is very possible depending on if US-52 is used or the old rail line to Dodge Center.

I'd be happy with just building a 70 MPH line. to Rochester. I think it's important to build something faster than holding out for a fantasy that may or may not be achieved. We can always upgrade it later to improve the times.

As for Dan Patch, that is exciting news. Northfield has been investing and working hard to renavate their train station in downtown Northfield paired with such a beautiful thriving downtown the train line that connects downtown Minneapolis or St. Paul with downtown Northfield is going to be such a wonderful thing!

I truly believe such a train line could really bring Northfield into the boom of the development that comes with being a suburb.

Heck, I will even be as bold as saying I think Northfield should have TWO train stations! One downtown and one North of downtown in the farmlands. Tons of cheap developable land could be rezoned to higher density and build an entire urban community and double or triple the size of Northfield in the next 20 years. I mean why not? Rural living in a highly walkable community but on a high frequency (even if its only 4 trains a day) train line that permits commuting to work for those who are able to work 80% remotely but need to be in the office only a day or two a week would be a great opportunity.

Although, maybe I'm a bit optimistic in my vision of what could be..

For a greenfield corridor it probably wouldn't make a ton of sense to build it to 70 mph.

Also as far as the Dan Patch, it's currently planned to only be studied to Savage since Dakota County is vehemently opposed to it.

[DanPatchToget]

Was the study to Savage passed?

I don't recall the entirety of Dakota County being against Dan Patch, just Lakeville, even though a station in their downtown could bring a big boost of visitors without more car traffic.

[Tiller]

It's only like 80 miles to Rochester, and high speed rail can run in a greenfield ROW carved from farmland for the majority of that distance. It's much flatter land than California. Plus it's on the way to Chicago - providing utility on its own while also potentially being the first section of a high speed rail line between the Twin Cities and Chicago.

Building high speed rail to 220 MPH specs won't be much of an increase in cost compared to 186 MPH or 150 MPH if we're building a greenfield line anyways. If we later on built a second section from Rochester to La Crosse, then using that 220 MPH track through Rochester instead of the current empire builder route along the Mississippi would shave like 2 hours of travel time off of Twin Cities - Chicago trips.

90 MPH or 110 MPH trains can totally work too, though they make more sense if we use existing trackage to extend service to Rochester. Which could be an intermediate step. Passenger Rail service through Northfield could totally split off and go East to serve Rochester with existing tracks/ROW.

[Trademark]

Was the study to Savage passed?

I don't recall the entirety of Dakota County being against Dan Patch, just Lakeville, even though a station in their downtown could bring a big boost of visitors without more car traffic.

The study bill hasn't passed yet. And according to Rep Jess Hansen, Burnsville is against it now too.

[Trademark]

It's only like 80 miles to Rochester, and high speed rail can run in a greenfield ROW carved from farmland for the majority of that distance. It's much flatter land than California. Plus it's on the way to Chicago - providing utility on its own while also potentially being the first section of a high speed rail line between the Twin Cities and Chicago.

Building high speed rail to 220 MPH specs won't be much of an increase in cost compared to 186 MPH or 150 MPH if we're building a greenfield line anyways. If we later on built a second section from Rochester to La Crosse, then using that 220 MPH track through Rochester instead of the current empire builder route along the Mississippi would shave like 2 hours of travel time off of Twin Cities - Chicago trips.

90 MPH or 110 MPH trains can totally work too, though they make more sense if we use existing trackage to extend service to Rochester. Which could be an intermediate step. Passenger Rail service through Northfield could totally split off and go East to serve Rochester with existing tracks/ROW.

The increase in cost would be the right of way in turning radius which will make acquiring property much more difficult and definitely eliminate any freeway corridor right of way.

[Bakken2016]

Was the study to Savage passed?

I don't recall the entirety of Dakota County being against Dan Patch, just Lakeville, even though a station in their downtown could bring a big boost of visitors without more car traffic.

The study bill hasn't passed yet. And according to Rep Jess Hansen, Burnsville is against it now too.

Why though?

[BoredAgain]

Was the study to Savage passed?

I don't recall the entirety of Dakota County being against Dan Patch, just Lakeville, even though a station in their downtown could bring a big boost of visitors without more car traffic.

The study bill hasn't passed yet. And according to Rep Jess Hansen, Burnsville is against it now too.

Why though?

If your only frame of reference for commuter rail is Northstar, then I'm not sure I would support a new line either. It has poor frequency, it costs a lot of money to operate, and it has spurred very little development to increase tax base. The only other commuter rail in the area is a failure. Why would you (as a community leader in Burnsville) want to expand that system and create another money sinkhole?

[Tcmetro]

Specific to Burnsville is that the line is currently abandoned and more or less only runs through the lowest-density residential section of the city. Burnsville already has the transit station at 13 & Nicollet and the Orange Line which are underutilized due to WFH, so public transit connections to Minneapolis are probably pretty low on the priority list.

[Mdcastle]

As much as I like rail as opposed to buses, Pragmatically I think if we're going to meaningfully improve transit to Dakota county I'm thinking A) Extend the Red Line to downtown, and B) On the Orange Line, 1) Build inline stations at 98th and 66th, 2) build direct ramps to and from the center lanes at 13, American and 76th and 3) extend to the Burnsville Mall area. Don't think there's much demand for rail service at the Drive-Thru only Caribou coffee on 42 or the truck storage lot on Southcross.

[mattaudio]

I don't see Dan Patch ever making sense for commuter rail competing with buses on 35W and 77 (nor do I see commuter rail and increasingly commuter bus as viable in general) but I do think Dan Patch could have a place in a larger regional corridor.

It could be a nice intercity trunk for Spine Line rail routes to Mason City/Des Moines/KC, Mankato/Sioux Falls (branching to Mankato Sub at Savage), and Rochester (branching to CP Waseca Sub at Owatonna). Start these services to SPUD via the UP (and back to Target Field) if needed, then incorporate a Dan Patch route to cut trip times or get to the higher quality destinations first. But these services wouldn't do much for suburban/urban connectivity. At most, I could imagine three suburban stations: West End, 494/Normandale Lakes, and a SOTR stop at County 42 or County 50/I-35. These stops would connect suburban buses and drivers to regional services.

[Trademark]

Was the study to Savage passed?

I don't recall the entirety of Dakota County being against Dan Patch, just Lakeville, even though a station in their downtown could bring a big boost of visitors without more car traffic.

The study bill hasn't passed yet. And according to Rep Jess Hansen, Burnsville is against it now too.

Why though?

Mostly neighbors not wanting trains near them.

[DanPatchToget]

I don't see Dan Patch ever making sense for commuter rail competing with buses on 35W and 77 (nor do I see commuter rail and increasingly commuter bus as viable in general) but I do think Dan Patch could have a place in a larger regional corridor.

I don't see how Dan Patch would be competing with buses on 35W, let alone 77, except maybe in Burnsville and Lakeville, but only the commuters going to downtown Minneapolis. Besides that the routes serve very different areas.

It would be nice if the immediate area around a hypothetical County Road 42 station on Dan Patch were upzoned, but just to the east there's several apartment buildings and Burnsville Center that could be connected to Dan Patch with good local bus service and/or an extension of the Orange Line.