Dan Patch Intercity Regional Passenger Rail

[Mdcastle]

If you have to get on a bus anyway to get to Dan Patch, why wouldn't you just take one downtown?

[DanPatchToget]

That depends: If you have to take a local bus (e.g. Orange Link) and transfer to Dan Patch or the Orange Line to reach downtown, which would people prefer? In this specific scenario it would probably be the Orange Line, unless there was major construction or an accident on 35W, or bad weather which trains usually handle better than buses (see the noticeable uptick in people taking Northstar during a blizzard pre-pandemic).

Thinking outside of downtown, there's plenty of areas where people would likely prefer Dan Patch over the Orange Line, especially if it means a one-seat ride. West Bloomington, Edina, St. Louis Park (particularly the West End), etc. Also a station in St. Louis Park with an easy transfer to the Green Line would make it quicker and easier to reach places west of St. Louis Park than taking the Orange Line to Lake Street and then having to make at least 2 transfers.

To put it another way: Why do we need Highway 100 when 35W and 169 are nearby? Because they still cover different areas and serve different trips. Same applies to Dan Patch and the Orange Line.

[DanPatchToget]

I saw on Facebook there's a group named something like "Citizens Concerned of Dan Patch Growth" (I can't remember the exact name since it's been a few weeks since I last saw it). I joined the group, hoping to have some dialogue and make sure there isn't spreading of misinformation, but before I could even post something in the group they blocked me. I assume they know I run the page "Support the Dan Patch Rail Line".

[thespeedmccool]

Soaking of which, now that the ban is lifted, have any cities or counties even mentioned it?

I know it was ostensibly driven by Savage, but I'm sure other cities on the corridor (if not all their residents) would be interested.

[Tom H.]

I know it's the way the game is played, but the naming of these groups always irks me. "Citizens Concerned for [X]" is just a dog whistle.

In this Strib article below, it talks about the group "Transit Done Right" which is (of course) just opposed to all transit, "sharing resources, tips and strategies on how to fend off the projects." The group states that they aren't opposed to the Blue Line extension in general, but think it works better as a BRT line instead of LRT (it's just "common sense"). Then a few paragraphs later, it talks about how they helped to throw sand in the gears of a BRT project also (the Purple Line in WBL).

https://www.startribune.com/grassroots- ... 600293295/

It's just such bad faith argumentation. I know I shouldn't be surprised but it's just so transparent.

[thespeedmccool]

I know it's the way the game is played, but the naming of these groups always irks me. "Citizens Concerned for [X]" is just a dog whistle.

In this Strib article below, it talks about the group "Transit Done Right" which is (of course) just opposed to all transit, "sharing resources, tips and strategies on how to fend off the projects." The group states that they aren't opposed to the Blue Line extension in general, but think it works better as a BRT line instead of LRT (it's just "common sense"). Then a few paragraphs later, it talks about how they helped to throw sand in the gears of a BRT project also (the Purple Line in WBL).

https://www.startribune.com/grassroots- ... 600293295/

It's just such bad faith argumentation. I know I shouldn't be surprised but it's just so transparent.

It belongs in a different thread, but the Twin Cities desperately needs a pro-transit advocacy group to attend all these meetings and beat back the tide of bad faith nonsense and bunk science pushed by these increasingly loud quacks.

[grant1simons2]

It's called Move Minnesota and it's led by an amazing advocate named Sam Rockwell.

They can't be everywhere at once though.

[DanPatchToget]

I know it's the way the game is played, but the naming of these groups always irks me. "Citizens Concerned for [X]" is just a dog whistle.

In this Strib article below, it talks about the group "Transit Done Right" which is (of course) just opposed to all transit, "sharing resources, tips and strategies on how to fend off the projects." The group states that they aren't opposed to the Blue Line extension in general, but think it works better as a BRT line instead of LRT (it's just "common sense"). Then a few paragraphs later, it talks about how they helped to throw sand in the gears of a BRT project also (the Purple Line in WBL).

https://www.startribune.com/grassroots- ... 600293295/

It's just such bad faith argumentation. I know I shouldn't be surprised but it's just so transparent.

It belongs in a different thread, but the Twin Cities desperately needs a pro-transit advocacy group to attend all these meetings and beat back the tide of bad faith nonsense and bunk science pushed by these increasingly loud quacks.

I certainly hope when there's serious study on Dan Patch again there are at least a decent number of pro-transit people attending the public meetings. I've probably already mentioned this, but the "community conversations" Edina held in 2017 about Dan Patch were full of incredibly hostile people (most if not all of them homeowners who live adjacent to the tracks), and I didn't feel safe speaking up about my support for passenger rail. Somehow these meetings/discussions/whatever you want to call them have to be more than just vocal NIMBYs who get other people to join their cause by spouting lies and fear mongering.

On a completely different note, this may sound like a fantasy maps type idea but hear me out, what if a new rail connection were built between the Dan Patch Line in Lakeville and Union Pacific's Spine Line in Farmington? With that connection it would be possible to go between Farmington and the western suburbs without having to go all the way up through St. Paul and Minneapolis. Plus, assuming it's all-day regional rail service, it could be cheap and easy to hop between Lakeville and Farmington. Also assuming this connection could be used by freight trains like the existing Progressive Rail local freight that goes between Northfield and Lakeville, then this could allow the Dan Patch Line tracks to be removed between Lakeville and Northfield and repurposed as a rail-trail corridor. If you look at the Dan Patch Line south of Lakeville and the Spine Line in Farmington it's a night and day difference; the former is old jointed rail, 10 mph speed limit, muddy and sinking ballast, etc. while the latter is welded rail, 40(?) mph speed limit, and the ties and ballast are in very good condition. There would very likely need to be a second track for a certain distance to accommodate Progressive Rail's traffic plus regional rail, but since it's in a rural area that shouldn't be an issue. The main issue, besides getting the freight railroads and Farmington on board, is where to route the new rail connection between Lakeville and Farmington. There used to be a rail line connecting the two, but that was abandoned decades ago and development built on top of it. There's plans to eventually extend 215th Street/Highway 70 towards Farmington, so perhaps the new rail connection could be incorporated into that.

[StandishGuy]

I'm pro-transit, but the Dan Patch Line seems like another Northstar Commuter Line that serves un-walkable, car-oriented sprawl. Maybe if there were some current movement towards TOD along the corridor, this would make more sense. Metro Transit and regional officials should continue to focus on ABRT which has actually demonstrated huge ridership increases. Tens of millions will be spent on the Orange, Red, Gold and Purple just to draw disappointing ridership.

[mattaudio]

the Dan Patch Line seems like another Northstar Commuter Line

Agreed. The lesson from Northstar is that peak-oriented commuter trains don't have much benefit. Less now than before COVID sent many office workers home for good, and it was even a struggletrain in the before times.

Pivot towards a regional rail model, though probably not on the Dan Patch corridor. If we want to hit Northfield, consider regional rail on the spine line:
MTFS, SPUD, low-cost-south-metro-P&R (County 42?), Northfield, Faribault, Owatonna, then east on the CPKC to Rochester.

If the line takes off to where more frequencies are needed vs what UP wants on the Spine Line or where it makes sense to hit a more populated corridor, *then* adjust routing to Dan Patch with SPUD terminus to MTFS, West End or Grandview, 494/Normandale, and a south of the river stop before rejoining the route in Northfield.

[thespeedmccool]

I agree that the concept of commuter rail is broadly dead, but I think the Dan Patch corridor would make just as good a regional rail as the alternate route through east Dakota County. I haven't thought about it all that much tough, I could be wrong.

[DanPatchToget]

I honestly don't understand the logic of the Spine Line being a replacement for Dan Patch. It's not. They're two completely different routes north of Northfield, and they should **both** have regional rail service eventually, not one over the other. Which route gets regional rail service first can certainly be debated.

[mattaudio]

The point is there's nothing between Northfield and Minneapolis/St. Paul that merits regional rail service. A suburban park and ride station, if necessary, could go somewhere on either route and serve SOTR just fine. Track between those two destinations is a means to an end to get from one place to another. One corridor is well-maintained for decent track speed, the other has trees growing between the tracks due to disuse.

[thespeedmccool]

The point is there's nothing between Northfield and Minneapolis/St. Paul that merits regional rail service. A suburban park and ride station, if necessary, could go somewhere on either route and serve SOTR just fine. Track between those two destinations is a means to an end to get from one place to another. One corridor is well-maintained for decent track speed, the other has trees growing between the tracks due to disuse.

This is a chicken-or-the-egg problem. Of course there's no rail-oriented dense downtowns along the Dan Patch on its way to Northfield, there's no rail.

What there are, however, are lots of opportunities along it for dense nodes: West End in St. Louis Park, Grandview and Cahill in Edina, Normandale in Bloomington, Downtown Savage, Burnsville Center, and Argonne and Downtown Lakeville. Most of those already have some existing trip generators and most also have long-range plans to densify and diversify land use (Cahill in particular just got a new master plan.) No transit route travelling through these communities ought to skip them, nor serve as just a "means to an end" for connecting Minneapolis with a single town of 20,000.

Now, that's not to say the other route doesn't have obvious transit-oriented potential. West Side Flats in St. Paul, Hardman Triangle in South St. Paul, Downtown Rosemount, and Downtown Farmington would make great candidates, plus there would probably have to be a station somewhere in Inver Grove Heights (a truly ambitious proposal would include long-range plans for a mixed-use hub in Empire and a rural flag stop at Castle Rock.)

Both routes are reasonable ways to get rail service to Northfield, and both should have in-between stops should they be built.

[DanPatchToget]

The point is there's nothing between Northfield and Minneapolis/St. Paul that merits regional rail service. A suburban park and ride station, if necessary, could go somewhere on either route and serve SOTR just fine. Track between those two destinations is a means to an end to get from one place to another. One corridor is well-maintained for decent track speed, the other has trees growing between the tracks due to disuse.

Seems like by your extremely high standards that 95% of our country's regional rail service shouldn't exist.

The land-use in the suburbs along Dan Patch certainly aren't perfect for regional rail, but it's not terrible either, and it's improving.

[Trademark]

The point is there's nothing between Northfield and Minneapolis/St. Paul that merits regional rail service. A suburban park and ride station, if necessary, could go somewhere on either route and serve SOTR just fine. Track between those two destinations is a means to an end to get from one place to another. One corridor is well-maintained for decent track speed, the other has trees growing between the tracks due to disuse.

There are plenty of nodes that deserve service. The West End, Grandview (50th street and highway 100), maybe Cahill area in Edina at 70th street (this one is borderline I'll admit), Normandale Lake, and Northfield with it's two colleges are all strong nodes. With density, and room to grow. West Shakopee Road is a good relocation opportunity, and CR-42 BRT can connect a station there to the redevelopment at Burnsville Center.

Northstar failed because they directly avoided dense nodes like Downtown Elk River, and Broadway and Central in favor of park and ride stations. Dan Patch can serve 30 minute all-day service, and can be served by quality east west feeder routes instead of driving.

[DanPatchToget]

A little history lesson on the Dan Patch Line:
With a north-south route that has/had several connections to east-west railroads and avoiding the busy rail yards in Minneapolis and St. Paul, the Dan Patch Line was quite successful with interchange traffic going from one major railroad to another major railroad. That of course changed as freight shipped by rail decreased and major railroads went bust or merged, but just as the Dan Patch Line had success by connecting to several east-west railroads, I envision regional rail on the Dan Patch Line having success connecting with several major east-west transit routes in the west and south metro.

[commissioner]

The point is there's nothing between Northfield and Minneapolis/St. Paul that merits regional rail service. A suburban park and ride station, if necessary, could go somewhere on either route and serve SOTR just fine. Track between those two destinations is a means to an end to get from one place to another. One corridor is well-maintained for decent track speed, the other has trees growing between the tracks due to disuse.

There are plenty of nodes that deserve service. The West End, Grandview (50th street and highway 100), maybe Cahill area in Edina at 70th street (this one is borderline I'll admit), Normandale Lake, and Northfield with it's two colleges are all strong nodes. With density, and room to grow. West Shakopee Road is a good relocation opportunity, and CR-42 BRT can connect a station there to the redevelopment at Burnsville Center.

Northstar failed because they directly avoided dense nodes like Downtown Elk River, and Broadway and Central in favor of park and ride stations. Dan Patch can serve 30 minute all-day service, and can be served by quality east west feeder routes instead of driving.

I'm with you on Northstar and would like to add not taking it to St. Cloud in the beginning was a big mistake

[mattaudio]

A little history lesson on the Dan Patch Line:
With a north-south route that has/had several connections to east-west railroads and avoiding the busy rail yards in Minneapolis and St. Paul, the Dan Patch Line was quite successful with interchange traffic going from one major railroad to another major railroad.

Any chance CPKC decides they're interested in this line again to bypass congestion for Canada to KC/Mexico through traffic? Completing the Crystal wye and rehabbing the line from Comus to Owatonna would give them home rails from west of Humbolt Yard south to Mason City Iowa. Not sure on a link from Mason City to somewhere on their KC-Chi main (Ottumwa?) but there are probably options. This could impact the future of passenger rail on the Dan Patch corridor.

[Trademark]

A little history lesson on the Dan Patch Line:
With a north-south route that has/had several connections to east-west railroads and avoiding the busy rail yards in Minneapolis and St. Paul, the Dan Patch Line was quite successful with interchange traffic going from one major railroad to another major railroad.

Any chance CPKC decides they're interested in this line again to bypass congestion for Canada to KC/Mexico through traffic? Completing the Crystal wye and rehabbing the line from Comus to Owatonna would give them home rails from west of Humbolt Yard south to Mason City Iowa. Not sure on a link from Mason City to somewhere on their KC-Chi main (Ottumwa?) but there are probably options. This could impact the future of passenger rail on the Dan Patch corridor.

Didn't the metcouncil block the Crystal wye? Leading to a whole bunch of stonewalling on the Blue Line?