Downtown Demographics

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
beykite
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby beykite » March 18th, 2013, 9:50 pm

twincitizen wrote:Dudes: Please do not use the quote feature if you are responding to the post directly above yours. It is redundant and unnecessarily makes the page longer. Thank you.
He's not responding to the above post. He's responding to the other post Jim Stanton made which was posted much higher up.

Tyler
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby Tyler » March 18th, 2013, 10:38 pm

beykite wrote: He's not responding to the above post. He's responding to the other post Jim Stanton made which was posted much higher up.
:lol:
Edit: Removed "unnecessary and redundant" quote.
Double Edit: Liked it better with quote. Put it back. Might triple edit when I wake up tomorrow. Depends if my neck hurts.
Triple Edit: Modified joke in double edit. Still not funny.
Towns!

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 19th, 2013, 8:40 am

ok :cry:

RailBaronYarr
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Re: StoneBridge (2nd Street South & 11th Avenue South)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 19th, 2013, 11:31 am

Nick wrote:This is an interesting conversation. A lot of it seems to be focusing on an imaginary couple in their late 20s with a toddler. Out of curiosity, can anyone imagine a downtown where a family with, say, three teenagers could live? Just as a thought exercise. For some reason, that seems harder than tunneling the LRT under 5th Street.
Downtown as in the CBD, or are we including areas over in DTE or St Anthony? In London the other day I saw plenty of kids in their teens walking around extremely dense areas. Presumably they have parents and presumably they live in the area. San Francisco was no different.. literally blocks from their CBD i see families out and about (no, not tourists).

Here's a different thought exercise.. if we can't even conceive of something like this happening, how could your typical suburban family possibly conceive of it?

MNdible
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Re: StoneBridge (2nd Street South & 11th Avenue South)

Postby MNdible » March 19th, 2013, 11:34 am

RailBaronYarr wrote:Presumably they have parents...
Not necessarily. The British have made great advances over the last few years in asexual budding.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: StoneBridge (2nd Street South & 11th Avenue South)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 19th, 2013, 11:42 am

min-chi-cbus wrote:I don't have a genius idea of where this could go though, as DTE is probably already too pricey for this kind of lower-intensity development.......perhaps somewhere in Nordeast?
DTE is quite literally 40-50% surface parking lots, with many municipally-subsidized garages. Hard to believe a bunch of row houses with basement apartments each about 20' wide wouldn't be more financially productive. Maybe I'm way off. And perhaps DTE isn't the best place for things like this, but we go from 20-30 story condos and small apartments meant for singles downtown to SF homes in north Uptown and the southern-most areas of North Minneapolis so fast. Neither are a problem, there just seems to be very little in between. This makes the amount of possible population too low in areas of SF homes close to the city, limiting food, bar, grocery, entertainment, and park options for families wanting to live close, and not enough space (or too pricey) in the DT areas for those same families.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 19th, 2013, 1:44 pm

I have a feeling some people would throw a hissy fit if 2-3 story rowhomes were built on some surface lots, while other lots saw new towers. I think the land is just too expensive now to justify townhomes....but I'm not sure.

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Didier
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby Didier » March 19th, 2013, 2:14 pm

DTE is pretty diverse. There are townhouses technically as part of the Grant Park development, if I'm not mistaken, and they don't feel out of place at all. That's in DTE technically, right?

As an aside, I'm pretty sure Al Franken lives in one of those townhouses.

mplsjaromir
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby mplsjaromir » March 19th, 2013, 2:24 pm

Didier wrote:DTE is pretty diverse. There are townhouses technically as part of the Grant Park development, if I'm not mistaken, and they don't feel out of place at all. That's in DTE technically, right?

As an aside, I'm pretty sure Al Franken lives in one of those townhouses.
Technically Elliot Park.

mamundsen
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby mamundsen » March 21st, 2013, 6:09 pm

Today I received a survey from a geography prof at the U (Dr. Brenda Kayzar) who is researching the revitalization of the North Loop.

The primary goal of the survey is to learn what everyday life is like in mixed use neighborhood; to the benefit of future planning.

Let me know if you want more info.

robotlollipop
Metrodome
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby robotlollipop » March 21st, 2013, 7:11 pm

I would like to check it out!

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby FISHMANPET » March 22nd, 2013, 12:48 am

I took a class from her (Urban Studies 1001) and even as a nascent urbanist I felt like I didn't like her vibe. Too suburban for my taste. But really none of that's relevant to anything.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 22nd, 2013, 6:52 am

Didier wrote:DTE is pretty diverse. There are townhouses technically as part of the Grant Park development, if I'm not mistaken, and they don't feel out of place at all. That's in DTE technically, right?

As an aside, I'm pretty sure Al Franken lives in one of those townhouses.
My guess, again, is that if an open lot were proposed as 2-3 story townhomes that not many people on this forum would be contempt with that. Grant Park also had a tower portion to their development -- it wasn't just townhomes.

Again, it's just a guess....I may be wrong.

mamundsen
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby mamundsen » March 22nd, 2013, 9:02 am

Does anyone know how I can post .pdf of the survey that I received?

General demo info first, then asks about crime, neighborhood groups, and some specific sites (Target Field, HERC, etc) and asks if they are a benefit, then asks for future visions.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby Viktor Vaughn » March 22nd, 2013, 10:47 am

Didier wrote:As an aside, I'm pretty sure Al Franken lives in one of those townhouses.
That's true. I went to a fundraiser at his townhouse during his Senate campaign. The Grant Park townhouses are very nice. They look so solid and timeless; I really wish more new construction fronted the street with three story townhomes and a tower set way back in the middle of the block.

The Grant Park townhomes are great housing for (rich) families downtown.

I'm generally content to leave aesthetic concerns to John and others with an eye for such things, but I can't help but notice that Grant Park must be nearly perfect from a street frontage perspective (Streetview) as described by Joe Urban in his recent Streets.MN post.

However, I lived a block away from Grant Park for two years and NOT ONCE saw anyone using their front door or patio. And while those stoops look like a nice place to grill dinner or sit and read a book and watch the city go by, I think that was generally done on the townhomes much more private 3rd floor rooftop patios. And even though those street-facing entrances look like front doors, most probably came and left via the back because that’s where they parked.

Grant Park is a situation of nearly perfect urban form resulting in almost zero streetlife. Which brings me back to an Onion article from years ago.

Sometimes I Feel Like I'm The Only One Trying To Gentrify This Neighborhood
The Onion wrote:When I moved into this neighborhood, I fell in love right away. Not with the actual neighborhood, but with its potential: It's affordable, there are nice row houses all around just waiting to be filled up by my friends, there's lot of open space to be exploited, and plenty of parking. Plus, this area has got a great authentic feel and, with a little work, it could be even more authentic. Perfect, right?
So why am I the only one doing anything about it?
{…}
I mean, I don't want the people here to leave. I just want them to stay inside more. Especially if they're not going to do anything to bring this community to life. But they're always out on their stoops, just playing dominoes or talking. I like talking, but I do it inside, where it was meant to be done. It makes me uncomfortable to have people watching me all the time. Not that I think they'd do anything, but I just like to be a little more private.

Also, their dogs stay outside and bark all day. I like dogs just fine, but why can't their dogs be smaller and more nervous?

When I was involved with the Elliot Park neighborhood group, a contingent of Grant Parkers came for a time to complain about crime and to demand increased police patrols. Even on a gorgeous September day, they would all drive separately to the meeting rather than walk the three blocks. They claimed a good number of Grant Park residents would completely refuse to venture east of Portland Avenue.

When I was at the fundraiser I mentioned, I overheard the owners of a coffee shop just across the street from Franken’s place, invite him to stop by sometime. I bit embarrassed, Al admitted he was not even aware there was a coffee shop across the street. He said he always goes “that way” [while motioning westward to the CBD]. Nevermind, that he lives on a one-way street going east.

I’m not writing any of this to dig on rich people, and most certainly not on Al Franken (who I endorse for Senate in 2014 -- as if anyone cares). I'm just expressing skepticism about the claim all this luxury housing is going to greatly invigorate street life or neighborhood retail. To be an actual city, we need to offer housing in the core that attracts a diverse range of people. Not just semi-retired rich people, not just single yuppie/hipsters, but people of a various income range, ethnicity, and family structure. Otherwise, were left with a fake Disney set façade of a city, not much different from “Mainstreet” Maple Grove, or the fake balconies on Block E.

Elliot Park is downtown's best chance to densify with families, workforce housing, and diverse ethnicities. I'm not saying the economics work out to build affordable housing there, but we need to find a way to overcome that market failure, for the good of the city as well as for the benefit of those without six figure incomes.

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Didier
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby Didier » March 22nd, 2013, 12:17 pm

min-chi-cbus wrote: My guess, again, is that if an open lot were proposed as 2-3 story townhomes that not many people on this forum would be contempt with that. Grant Park also had a tower portion to their development -- it wasn't just townhomes.

Again, it's just a guess....I may be wrong.
I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me? My point was simply that there is a precedent for townhomes in that area, so adding more isn't some radical idea or anything.

fehler
Rice Park
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby fehler » March 22nd, 2013, 1:48 pm

I can imagine a skyway between Grant Park and Francis Drake.

John
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby John » March 22nd, 2013, 3:27 pm

Grant Park condos are rather isolated from the rest of downtown. It is surrounded by a freeway, office building, and mostly low income apartment buildings. During the condo boom, there were several other large projects proposed around it with street level retail. If they would have been built, there would be more pedestrian activity in that area. In a way, I think the vicinity around Grant Park is a work in progress that's unfortunately on hold. Hopefully , that will change in the next few years.

As far as diversity (in all its forms) for DTE and Elliot Park, I'm in agreement with you Viktor. I think there should be a concerted effort to create that with new development. In particular, I think there should be more focus on creating middle income housing , which seems to be lacking in our city that's becoming more a place to live for the very rich and very poor.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 22nd, 2013, 4:39 pm

Didier wrote:
min-chi-cbus wrote: My guess, again, is that if an open lot were proposed as 2-3 story townhomes that not many people on this forum would be contempt with that. Grant Park also had a tower portion to their development -- it wasn't just townhomes.

Again, it's just a guess....I may be wrong.
I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me? My point was simply that there is a precedent for townhomes in that area, so adding more isn't some radical idea or anything.
Disagreeing.....I'm saying most developers probably couldn't easily profit off a development like that considering land values, and that people on this forum especially would be bummed to hear about 2-3 story townhomes in downtown.

Don't get me wrong, I would love more townhomes, and I don't think that downtown East is a bad place for them, but perhaps in a development that also included a tower. I'd rather there be a transitionary zone between downtown and the rest of the city that could support townhome development on a much larger scale. Perhaps between Uptown and Downtown, or Nordeast? Definitely the Fort Snelling Upper Post if/when it is available to be developed!!

Wedgeguy
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Re: Downtown Demographics

Postby Wedgeguy » March 22nd, 2013, 8:19 pm

For the last year I have walked though that neighborhood during the day and a few evenings. I've waited at bus stops and had no problems happen with anyone. What we are hearing about is what I call, scared of the FOLKS, never taking the time during the day to walk to the coffee shop and meet the owner, not walking to CVS to get a few things. Many of these people are still suburbanites now stuck in the city and they have not learned how to live here in the city.


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