Northstar Commuter Rail
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- Stone Arch Bridge
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Re: Northstar
More reason to repurpose this into regional rail that connects Mpls to St. Cloud rather than calling it a commuter service that has only a fraction of the value capture compared to express buses.
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- Nicollet Mall
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Re: Northstar
I am unfamiliar with the Northstar's construction and St. Cloud as a city. Would connecting it to St. Cloud really make that big of a difference in the ridership numbers? Why wasn't it built all the way to St. Cloud in the first place?
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- Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Northstar
Politicians saw the value of building a line between Minneapolis and St. Cloud to alleviate congestion on US HWY 10. But in order to look real serious and the guardians of the public dollar they cut it in half making the whole project pretty worthless.
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- Stone Arch Bridge
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Re: Northstar
Was the extension less palatable because pols were insisting on a connection with STC airport?
I think it's clear STC won't have service other than maybe some vacation charters to LV/AZ/FL, and its convenience factor would be diminished by rail connectivity to MSP. So I hope they can just scrap this idea and get onto connecting it to St. Cloud.
I think it's clear STC won't have service other than maybe some vacation charters to LV/AZ/FL, and its convenience factor would be diminished by rail connectivity to MSP. So I hope they can just scrap this idea and get onto connecting it to St. Cloud.
Re: Northstar
To be fair, the political issue is complex. But the short version is that T-Paw was against the project completely until the Bush administration's FTA said that the southern half of the line looked like a viable transit line, and that the project could secure funding if it were cut in half. Pawlenty became somewhat supportive of this version of the line. Bear in mind that when that choice was made, nobody had any idea how expensive the easement from BNSF would be; if I recall correctly they were estimating something in the ballpark of $25m for a 25-year easement. The decision to go with a perpetual easement was made when BNSF came back with dramatically higher costs.
Re: Northstar
I continue to be baffled that people think that a connection to St. Cloud will be the savior for this line. Yes, I know a few students at SCSU will use it, and people on this board will ride it for novelty, but that's not enough to make a dent in the overall numbers.
The only thing that will salvage this line is the growth of jobs in downtown Minneapolis and the build out of the suburban areas around the stations. This is a commuter line. It is what it is.
I find it really strange that many of the same people who think that NLX is a bad idea think that extending Northstar to St. Cloud is a good idea. Duluth is by far a bigger trip generator, with a more walkable downtown, and real demand from tourists.
The only thing that will salvage this line is the growth of jobs in downtown Minneapolis and the build out of the suburban areas around the stations. This is a commuter line. It is what it is.
I find it really strange that many of the same people who think that NLX is a bad idea think that extending Northstar to St. Cloud is a good idea. Duluth is by far a bigger trip generator, with a more walkable downtown, and real demand from tourists.
- FISHMANPET
- IDS Center
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Re: Northstar
Obviously we're not New York, but when MTA added a bunch of trips and trains to Metro North they saw ridership gains. But commuter rail as a whole isn't doing that great:
http://www.planetizen.com/node/63692
http://www.planetizen.com/node/63692
Re: Northstar
Perhaps this is anecdotal evidence, but I personally know several people who would use this line to go to St Cloud and back on a regular basis if it actually WENT to St Cloud and SPUD. I used to use it and take the "North Star Link" the rest of the way into St Cloud when my ex lived there. North Star Link is a joke - these are old motorcoaches that break down often. One of my friends has been traveling by car between Eagan and St Cloud several days a week for work, and is at wit's end over how terrible a drive it is.
For passenger rail to effectively work, it needs to go places where people want to go. It seems short-sighted to not finish the remaining 20 miles into Cloud, a place where people want to go (unlike Big Lake) and where people come from to visit the Twin Cities. The North Star doesn't work because it doesn't connect people to where they want and need to go. Given that the St Cloud airport advertises short flights between there and the Twin Cities on billboards, there must be a market and enough people who are making this trip. For such a short distance, a train would be more efficient and save a lot of time for the folks who have been flying.
Let's not forget why we got Northstar to begin with: it was better use of dollars than upgrading US Hwy 10 - the cost was in the BILLIONS to do so, as was the cost to upgrade 94. To run passenger trains on existing rails was comparatively cheap, costing millions instead of billions.
For passenger rail to effectively work, it needs to go places where people want to go. It seems short-sighted to not finish the remaining 20 miles into Cloud, a place where people want to go (unlike Big Lake) and where people come from to visit the Twin Cities. The North Star doesn't work because it doesn't connect people to where they want and need to go. Given that the St Cloud airport advertises short flights between there and the Twin Cities on billboards, there must be a market and enough people who are making this trip. For such a short distance, a train would be more efficient and save a lot of time for the folks who have been flying.
Let's not forget why we got Northstar to begin with: it was better use of dollars than upgrading US Hwy 10 - the cost was in the BILLIONS to do so, as was the cost to upgrade 94. To run passenger trains on existing rails was comparatively cheap, costing millions instead of billions.
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- Stone Arch Bridge
- Posts: 7762
- Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
- Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield
Re: Northstar
Yet there are still plans to dump money into Hwy 10 and I-94. #waste
Re: Northstar
Back when the legislature was threatening to make massive cuts to metro-area transit funding, I wrote a blog post about converting Northstar into a "regional rail" service with an NLX-like service pattern to St. Cloud (trains running back and forth all day long rather than the 5 commute plus 1 reverse-commute pattern we have today). If (and it's a big if) the line can operate at a surplus with that service pattern, it could actually be viable for the Met Council/Metro Transit to go to a bank and get a standard loan to build out a minimal amount of improvement necessary to get to St. Cloud. In the end, the loan payments would probably be cheaper than the current annual subsidy.
But that was just a thought experiment on how to keep Northstar alive through a period where Metro Transit's funding would have been slashed.
http://hizeph400.blogspot.com/2011/06/n ... hstar.html
But that was just a thought experiment on how to keep Northstar alive through a period where Metro Transit's funding would have been slashed.
http://hizeph400.blogspot.com/2011/06/n ... hstar.html
Mike Hicks
https://hizeph400.blogspot.com/
https://hizeph400.blogspot.com/
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- US Bank Plaza
- Posts: 711
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Re: Northstar
You mean other than the SWLRT that's going to serve suburban commuters instead of connecting urban nodes?And that is why we aren't going to see more commuter rail for a very long time.
Re: Northstar
You just couldn't resist?You mean other than the SWLRT that's going to serve suburban commuters instead of connecting urban nodes?
I bet there will be more reverse commuters on SWLRT than there are total users on Northstar. There are 30,000 jobs in the Golden Triangle, and growing.
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- Capella Tower
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Re: Northstar
MNdible, was it you who was pointing out that StC had a much higher chance of great regional rail ridership than going through Rochester on the way to Chicago (in a world of future HSR alternatives to Chicago)? I remember the projected yearly trips to StC in the report being quite high. And while I agree it will be largely commuters, college kids, a few tourists, possibly people going to MN/SCSU hockey games, extending the Northstar line and running different service patterns would be a lot cheaper than implementing the NLX, and a great way to test the waters on regional rail (IMHO, of course).
Re: Northstar
Metro Transit has set a high-water mark for pre-sold Northstar rail tickets -- 530 for the Kenny Chesney concert on Friday. http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/215681001.html
Mike Hicks
https://hizeph400.blogspot.com/
https://hizeph400.blogspot.com/
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- US Bank Plaza
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- Target Field
- Posts: 577
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Re: Northstar
:Thumbs Up:
Now, lobby to complete the darn thing!!!!!!
Now, lobby to complete the darn thing!!!!!!
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- IDS Center
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- Location: Merriam Park, St. Paul
Re: Northstar
So Brent can get from his cabin in St Cloud to his office in the IDS?
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.
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- Target Field
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Re: Northstar
Touché
Sven bringing his goats to slaughterhouse.
Sven bringing his goats to slaughterhouse.
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- US Bank Plaza
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- Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:56 am
Re: Northstar
I know it's not happening anytime soon, but assume at some point however far off in the future, Northstar does get completed to St. Cloud. What kind of headways/schedule would be likely? We could expect at least one or two mid-day trips, right?
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- Nicollet Mall
- Posts: 162
- Joined: June 6th, 2012, 7:57 am
Re: Northstar
To be fair, is it really any less pointless to go all the way to St. Cloud than it is just going to Big Lake, now?So Brent can get from his cabin in St Cloud to his office in the IDS?
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