The Venue at Dinkytown - (14th Avenue SE & 5th Street SE)

[MNdible]

My guess is Opus would be happy to subdivide the spaces into smaller storefronts if it would get this to go through. My guess is also that Save Dinkytownists are not interested in anything other than surface parking lots.

My guess is that you're wrong on the first point, and I'm absolutely certain that you're wrong about the second.

[min-chi-cbus]

Seriously?

[MSPtoMKE]

Whew! I thought we were going to loose this gem!


Save This Parking Lot! by MSPdude, on Flickr

[ECtransplant]

Why do the "Saviors" keep saying Minneapolis has the second highest housing costs to NYC? Are they (purposefully) confusing that with vacancy rates? It's so obviously not true to anywhere who has any idea about anything outside of Minnesota that I can't believe there are people saying that with a straight face -- leaving aside the "logic" that restricting the housing supply would keep housing costs down.

[mulad]

I have to agree with mattaudio's points -- I was talking with a coworker yesterday over lunch who lives in the Marcy-Holmes neighborhood. When I asked him about it, his first response was, "Where is everybody going to park?" I smiled and laughed because I figured he was being sarcastic, but he was being serious.

[RailBaronYarr]

Yeah, the SD folks are trying to move the discussion away from the parking lot toward the precedent-setting re-zoning of the parcels from C1 to C3A. They're doing this because they believe they can capture a much more emotional response from what would otherwise be people who don't give a crap by scaring them in to believing: 1) that eventually all other parcels in the area will be re-zoned in the same way an demolished for a greater purpose. Places like Al's Breakfast, Loring Pasta Bar, and Varsity Theater. 2) C3A means big developers who only care about money (you know, unlike all those small developers who don't care about money) and thus will only lease out the new commercial space to big chains, which will ruin the neighborhood's character.

What confuses me is that they use the terms "unique" and "character" interchangeably to describe both the architecture of the area as well as the type of businesses. As for the architecture, this site has nothing of value on it, nor does most of the entire Dinkytown area. As for businesses, they ignore current reality of the disconnect between building size and tenant.

But, I believe the SD people know that there is already a natural reaction for residents, business owners, alumni, and visitos when they hear that parking might be going away. They just need to mention that public parking will be reduced as a result of this development and people will make the claim on their own..

[matt91486]

Some of the comments on the Yglesias article are getting a bit hysterical, but I give the Save Dinkytown movement credit for their ability to mobilize, even if I don't find their goal here to be particularly in the area's best interest.

[Wedgeguy]

Sounds like Obamacare hysteria!

[JordanWasaN]

Hello all: long time follower, first time poster.

TC Daily Planet has an online poll up about the project; I'm sure you'll want to sway this particular unscientific poll.

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/poll/whats ... evelopment

[min-chi-cbus]

I got this message when I voted "yes":

Cookie support required to anonymous voting


I am pretty sure my computer has cookies (isn't that when it remembers your previous entries and such?).....does this pop up for anyone else, and does it pop up if you press "no" or just "yes"?

[twincitizen]

Hello all: long time follower, first time poster.

TC Daily Planet has an online poll up about the project; I'm sure you'll want to sway this particular unscientific poll.

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/poll/whats ... evelopment

Thanks for the share!

min-chi-cbus: I did not get an error. Perhaps you need to be logged into Facebook or some other social network to vote, since it appears TCDP uses Facebook commenting.

Everyone: find your best arguments from this too-long thread and copy to the TCDP poll. After you've emailed your councilperson and mayor, of course.

[Didier]

This thread is becoming something of an echo chamber, and I feel like some of the discussion is mischaracterizing the opposition.

At its core this is a philosophical disagreement between redeveloping this block with several smaller buildings or with a large, mixed-use building.

Emotionally the Save Dinkytown group makes a much stronger case. The specific buildings in Dinkytown are generally irreverent; the allure of the neighborhood is that it is an eclectic area with lots of different buildings. There is a clear difference between six small buildings on one block and a block-long building with six storefronts. Think 4th Street in Dinkytown vs Washington Avenue in Stadium Village. If 4th Street could be re-created on 5th Street, most people — including me — would be in favor of that.

Realistically, the Save Dinkytown vision does not exist and is unlikely to exist any time soon. In other words, re-creating 4th Street on 5th Street is not an actual option. Given that, the Opus plan was actually pretty good. It included setbacks, it solved parking long-term and the developers seemed genuinely appeared willing to work with the neighborhood. Compared to the UTEC development across the street, Opus' plan was much better.

Given people's natural biases and understandable lack of interest in topics such as density, zoning, etc., it's of little use making personal attacks against them for wanting to "Save Dinkytown." We are much better off accepting the emotional argument and making an earnest effort to promote the rational argument that Opus actually had a good compromise plan.

[Snelbian]

I don't think I've heard anyone opposing this development suggest redevelopment as smaller buildings. I'm pretty positive that's NOT the core issue. The core, if there is one, is an anti-change sentiment. People want the same experience they had as undergrads when they come back ten or fifty years later. Tack on anti-big business sentiment, a handful of businesses afraid of higher rents, terror of losing businesses not actually threatened, a love of overly plentiful parking, and a desire to protest something for the sake of having something to protest, and you've got Save Dinkytown. I WISH it was about one big redevelopment or lots of small ones.

That said, I think your strategy is a good one.

[FISHMANPET]

I know NIMBY is a bad word, but with the shear number of arguments Save Dinkytown has against this development leads me to believe that they'll just throw any thing against the wall and hope it sticks.

I'm glad this is gettig some PR, maybe Opus can spin it around and try and work with Save Dinkytown, which I think will reveal the true nature of the group not as one that wants to "save" Dinkytown but as one that wants to freeze Dinkytown.

[Didier]

I think Save Dinkytown's problem is that they don't know how to eloquently get their point across, so the result is a bunch on hyperbole, half-truths (Minneapolis is behind only New York in rent prices? lol wtf?) and emotion.

For anyone that hasn't read Cam Gordon's blog post about the vote yet, I recommend it. This puts the valid concerns into a more rational perspective, and it's hard to argue with his logic that any major decision like this — and it is major — should wait until the Small Area Plan is complete.

http://secondward.blogspot.com/2013/07/ ... pment.html

And since attention spans are terrible, I will quote his last two paragraphs.

The Opus project itself would neither keep Dinkytown as it is nor condemn the rest of the area to being torn down and replaced. But it would, without some other action by the Council, send the signal that the Council is ready and willing to see Dinkytown wholly transformed into something completely different.

I don't think that's a good signal to send. I think we need to give Planning staff and neighborhood stakeholders the time to finish the Small Area Plan, and to base our rezoning decisions for the area on that plan.

[Nick]

See, but the thing with the Small Area Plan, and to some extent all plans/zoning, is that the broader public doesn't really understand the point behind doing the plan, other that in this case they want it done to stall something they don't want to happen regardless of what the plan says. That misunderstanding shows up with basically contentious project in the city where you have people showing up at meetings exclaiming "...but the plan says!!" like that's intended to be some end all be all document. I mean don't we all know exactly what that plan is going to look like already? Lots of watercolor conceptual renderings and pictures of bike racks in Portland, with mixed-use buildings on corners and etc etc etc.

[mattaudio]

Interesting read. I keep wondering why these new projects fail to have small mixed-use storefront space but instead opt to have giant retail spaces that usually can only be filled by a CVS or a grocery or a large chain store. I realize that's a valid concern that people have. I'd rather see the best of both worlds... new development but also smaller spaces that serve the important neighborhood services and business incubator functions Cam speaks of. I'm imagining 250 to 2000 SF spaces that could be your neighborhood accountant, niche retail shop, startup office/light manufacturing, or micro-restaurant. We're not building these types of spaces anymore.

Granted, the same market forces that apply to the residential market also apply to this flexible-use market: A brand new high-end space is not likely going to yield cost-effective rents for startup businesses. Also, I'm sure it's much easier and less risky for these large developers to land an established large-footprint restaurant and a national chain retailer and call it done. In this case, would it be miles better than the existing land use? Of course. I'd also hope that we have some long-term urbanism vision as well.

Everyone knows that I wish this project will get built. Yet I'm also hoping the Small Area Plan digs a little deeper for future projects.

Is it illegal to create small, flexible spaces these days? Too many building codes that don't allow for such spaces? Party walls are no longer a thing? Parking minimums don't allow it? It seems there are very few urban incubator storefronts that were built in the Post-WWII era... this places a premium on "old" storefronts that can serve this low-footprint market, but then the demand for this sub-market necessarily raises rents which is counterproductive to the whole purpose of these spaces. We need to figure out how to get more of these spaces built as projects go on, or at least we need to make it possible to subdivide spaces over time.

[mullen]

NIMBYism at its finest. it's not a bad word....it applies to this scenario and many across the city. right up cam gordon's alley. that ward deserves him.

the same experiencd as undergrads? i'm a U alum and there has been so much change for the good, imo. but keep your parking lot.

[MNdible]

Is it illegal to create small, flexible spaces these days?

I think you're dead on that there's a problem with the ability / willingness to provide small scale retail spaces. I think some of it is built into the code, trying to do right by everybody. For example, the need for every retail space to provide access to two accessible restrooms (men's and women's, not a single unisex) chews up, with circulation space, about 150 sf right off the top. A lot of the tight, quirky spaces that we love simply couldn't be built today, because they're not accessible.

Beyond that, though, I think you're correct that there's an element of risk in leasing to, say, five small businesses as opposed to one large business. I'm thinking of a number of newer retail spaces around town where they were built with multiple storefronts but in the end rented out to a single large user. It's easier for the landlords, easier for the leasing agents, etc. Even though you could probably charge a slightly higher sf price for the small spaces, it's not worth the risk of having a couple of empty spaces and having to chase down rent payments.

[FISHMANPET]

Would the code allow 5 retail spaces to share some common areas, like for example bathrooms?