Nicollet Mall

[Nathan]

I'll be there! I get extra credit for class

[JackGrayson]

Throwing this out there (relates to skyway/street pedestrian traffic dilemma); what about embracing winter along the Mall with skating lanes either converted from spring/summer/fall bike lanes or beginning at the Depot and being able to stop at vendors/cafes or get a skate-through-window beverage? Not sure about skating and grabbing a scotch (or 2) laws, so call it a hot chocolate?

While were at it,lets bake a cake of rainbows,have Nieman Marcus reopen, have Apple move their headquarters here, and go back in time and not build City Center.

[seanrichardryan]

Nicolet Nicollette [sic] nicollete Nicolette [sic] niccolet mawl

(Just a test, Thanks Nick)

[Silophant]

Someone was able to make it to this tonight, right? Thoughts?

[twincitizen]

From an oftentimes pessimistic urbanist (is there any other kind?), I am actually kind of excited after seeing that presentation.

Key takeaways:
Project limits are Grant to Washington, period. This project does not address anything beyond that, but hopes to be a catalyst for development on both ends. Both ends will have the most intense "greening".

new name = Nicollet Mile (I assume this is official...we'll see how that goes over)

6th-8th portion could be amazing. There's really no way to describe it without the images...I think it would take more than 1000 words. Here's a few dozen:
The skyways between CityCenter-Gaviidae and IDS-Macy's will each have stairs that come down to a center island/plaza that will be between the traffic lanes.
City Center's new owners are definitely on board and want to be a big part of this with a main entrance on corner of Nicollet & 7th. They're trying to get IDS, Macy's, and Saks to add major glassy entrances at that intersection as well. Obviously the sidewalks would be quite narrow for these two blocks to fit everything. All amenities (think trees, benches, trash cans, vendors, etc.) would be located on those center islands.


David Frank stated, definitively, buses will remain on the mall, even if/when a streetcar is added. Love it or hate it, it answers a lot of questions and helps the process move forward. Julie Snow Architects is designing the bus shelters. They will be more long/skinny like Marq2, rather than the existing round ones, which is a much better use of space.
The "moving lane" of pedestrian traffic will be clearly more delineated and close to the buildings.
The mall will be curbless and retain the serpentine shape, albeit modified in many places.

No dedicated space for bikes. This project is being sold as an enhancement for pedestrians first, transit is sort of status quo plus (hopefully off-board fare collection, better shelters, etc. will find a way in), bikes are definitely status quo (worse than status quo if you can't ride between streetcar rails I guess)

[mattaudio]

Isn't the serpentine shape bad for streetcars?

[twincitizen]

What, like they would smash into each other because of the curves?

With single-car trams and two articulation points, at 10-15mph speeds, I seriously doubt that it's an issue.

Perhaps the streetcar ROW would need less room if it was a perfectly straight line, but probably not by much.

[Silophant]

Sounds great! Not perfect, obviously, but a definite improvement. So the center island is only for those two blocks?

As far as buses go, I still don't understand why local routes can't use the Marq2 lanes along with the Expresses.

[twincitizen]

Roper: http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/246256521.html

EDIT: Not Roper, Bill McAuliffe (mistakenly assumed Eric Roper was the only author of Strib's MPLS blog)

[mister.shoes]

False alarm, though the STrib is linking to it too. On the bright side, they have some new renderings in a photo gallery:
http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/246256521.html

Edit: when I visited the Roper link previously the gallery wasn't yet there. Didn't mean to relink to the same thing. Derp, myself.

[Nathan]

the presentation was pretty awesome... they split the "Nicollet mile" into 5 sections, the outermost b eing the loring woods and the Mississippi woods, the next two in were the Nicollet groves being less wooded, and the center section being at 7 rally aims at making this an urban center, opening the retail to the corner, splitting the traffic lanes to have a large center pedestrian area where large seating/ staircases come down from the skyways on either side of 7th onto... so many more details, but it was already so well thought out. I really liked it.

[min-chi-cbus]

Skating in the middle of the street -- is that practical? Who's going to have their skates on them while they're walking by to happen upon that rink? Or, who's going to pack their skates, get in the family truckster, and drive downtown just to skate in that dinky street rink?

I love the ambition but some of these ideas are a bit out there to me. I trust the presentation was great but the pic from the Strib was a head-scratcher!

[Tcmetro]

I really dislike the idea of trying to put people in the middle of the street. It's nice on paper, but I don't think people are going to want to hang out in the middle of the street, surrounded by buses.

I'm also predicting doom on the median plaza on Washington Avenue at the University. Just in case anyone is wondering.

[Nick]

Wellllll.....


Nicollet Mall by UrbanMSP, on Flickr

[mulad]

The normal measuring tool I use on Google Maps isn't being very helpful right now since most of Nicollet Mall was in shadow when they took their most recent pictures, but it looks like the corridor is about 80 to 85 feet wide (building face to building face).

[John]

Everything sounds great except the ill conceived concept of the center islands. It would make the sidewalks too narrow and the bus lanes would take up too much space for a people oriented median strip to be truly successful. It may have the opposite effect and actually discourage and impede the flow of pedestrians walking up and down the street. The real solution is to take all the buses off Nicollet Mall which will never happen. The storefronts should be opened up with glass anyways. And there are public safety concerns. Who would really use and congregate in these spaces in the middle of a big city? And why would you put in a tiny unusable ice rink when we should be renovating Peavey Plaza which already has a great and much larger space for that?

[schmitzm03]

The 'center island' concept seems to be a direct reference to the 16th St pedestrian mall in Denver. It is fantastic and essentially has a big 'center island' along a large stretch. When I was there last summer for work there were people in the island area at all times of the day. It could work here, depending on the specifics of the design/implementation (of course).

[Scott16475]

schmitzm03 - I'm not familiar with Denver's 16th St mall but are there busses that travel along the mall or is it a strictly pedestrian mall like the name implies? I ask because I'm NOT a fan of the busses on Nicollet but I can't focus on that since it's clear the city loves busses on this street and no amount of complaining is going to change that.

[twincitizen]

Let's not get too caught up on the skating rink. I rolled my eyes at that during the presentation as well.

The point was that it is a flexible programmable space that could be used for different things at different times of the year.

I definitely share the concern that sidewalks will be too narrow here. It could have the opposite effect of moving even more people up to the skyway.

Let's not get too wrapped up in "stinky buses" either. Technology is always evolving...we're on the cusp of having advanced hybrid buses that can operate in all electric mode for the length of the mall (short distance at low speeds). We'll also have off-board fare collection and all-door boarding that should speed things up considerably.

If the sidewalks are too narrow for buses to stop between 6th and 8th, I'd see that as a positive! I want to see this project push hard on Metro Transit on bus stop spacing. Every 3 blocks should be plenty.

[schmitzm03]

schmitzm03 - I'm not familiar with Denver's 16th St mall but are there busses that travel along the mall or is it a strictly pedestrian mall like the name implies? I ask because I'm NOT a fan of the busses on Nicollet but I can't focus on that since it's clear the city loves busses on this street and no amount of complaining is going to change that.

Indeed there are busses.