West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

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lordmoke
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West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby lordmoke » June 11th, 2014, 9:25 am

The City has issued an RFP for West Broadway transitway analysis:
http://io.questcdn.com/questio/action/p ... x=0&page=0

There are alignment maps in the linked document.

As with Nicollet-Central, we're looking at Streetcars vs. BRT. I'm guessing this is just going to end up as another due diligence thing before we go and pick streetcars anyways.

Tcmetro
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Re: West Broadway Corridor

Postby Tcmetro » June 11th, 2014, 4:26 pm

Here's an update from the Met Council Transportation Committee on the matter:

http://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meeting ... rlson.aspx

It discusses the potential routings and possible endpoints. IMO, the Washington Av-Broadway Av-N Memorial-Robbinsdale line will be chosen, but I guess it could still be a toss-up. Arterial BRT and Streetcar will probably have similar effects on transportation options; however, it will be interesting to see the modeled differences in development between the two modes.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor

Postby David Greene » June 11th, 2014, 8:32 pm

Tcmetro wrote:It discusses the potential routings and possible endpoints. IMO, the Washington Av-Broadway Av-N Memorial-Robbinsdale line will be chosen
I'm not that fmiliar with W. Broadway past N. Penn. I'd like to know alleycat and others what the incremental benefit of terminating at Robbinsdale vs. Golden Valley Road would be. It seems a little odd to have the aBRT option directly serve downtown Robbinsdale but not the streetcar. I suppose cost, blah, blah, blah.

Tcmetro
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Re: West Broadway Corridor

Postby Tcmetro » June 11th, 2014, 9:34 pm

W Broadway past Penn isn't anything special, mainly SFH residential with small businesses here and there. The advantage of serving the routing to Robbinsdale would be that it would serve N Memorial Hospital, whereas a Golden Valley Road alignment would only serve a transfer to the light rail line.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor

Postby David Greene » June 11th, 2014, 9:37 pm

Tcmetro wrote:W Broadway past Penn isn't anything special, mainly SFH residential with small businesses here and there. The advantage of serving the routing to Robbinsdale would be that it would serve N Memorial Hospital, whereas a Golden Valley Road alignment would only serve a transfer to the light rail line.
That's a very good point. It's an important connection.

I still don't get why a streetcar wouldn't continue to follow W. Broadway through Robbinsdale (with a few "detours" to get there). The area is really nice, almost streetcar-ish.

Hmm, I wonder why. :)
Last edited by David Greene on June 11th, 2014, 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tcmetro
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Re: West Broadway Corridor

Postby Tcmetro » June 11th, 2014, 9:50 pm

I suppose it would come down to costs. The length of Robbinsdale to Penn is almost the same length as that of Penn to Downtown. The presentation mentions that they want to keep capital costs low so they can apply for a FTA Small Starts grant.

I think another problem is that the Met Council and CTIB aren't really interested in funding streetcars (and if they aren't, then it's more than likely that the state won't be). The framework about streetcars needs to be implemented soon, so that these projects can be realized instead of becoming more plans that collect dust on the shelves.

Additionally, there are similar problems with the Arterial BRT program. So far, the planned Arterial BRT system seems to be a hodgepodge of whatever money Metro Transit can gather. For the A-Line, they were able to combine CMAQ grants and State bonds for funding. If CTIB could provide $100M or even $50M to the Arterial BRT program, many of those lines could be completed at a quicker rate.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor

Postby David Greene » June 11th, 2014, 10:03 pm

Tcmetro wrote:I suppose it would come down to costs. The length of Robbinsdale to Penn is almost the same length as that of Penn to Downtown. The presentation mentions that they want to keep capital costs low so they can apply for a FTA Small Starts grant.
But they also talk about expanding the line in the future. That's what I'm talking about.
Tcmetro wrote:I think another problem is that the Met Council and CTIB aren't really interested in funding streetcars (and if they aren't, then it's more than likely that the state won't be). The framework about streetcars needs to be implemented soon, so that these projects can be realized instead of becoming more plans that collect dust on the shelves.
Does the linked presentation mean this corridor is now a Met Council project like Midtown? I know the Council is going to include streetcars in its official planning capacity. Soon, I believe.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor

Postby Tcmetro » June 11th, 2014, 10:14 pm

It seems that the Alternatives Analysis is being conducted because, IIRC, the City of Minneapolis asked for one. I think that without the city this study would not be happening. Also, I suppose my skepticism comes from the fact that Midtown is technically a streetcar project, and since the study has been completed there has been little to no word if that line will ever actually be funded.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor

Postby alleycat » June 11th, 2014, 10:23 pm

David Greene wrote:I still don't get why a streetcar wouldn't continue to follow W. Broadway through Robbinsdale (with a few "detours" to get there).
Oakdale to West Broadway via France goes through the core of the North Memorial campus. It's probably the most logical route to Broadway. It's just a frontage road from the border to France.

I'd prefer the McNair routing to GVR. That seems like the least redundant option. I really like downtown Robbinsdale, but those alignments seem like a carrot so Opat will back the line.
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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » September 22nd, 2014, 9:59 am


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West Broadway Transit Study

Postby TheUrbanGopher » March 19th, 2015, 6:45 am


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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » March 19th, 2015, 7:39 am

So I don't know if people have heard, but the prospect of a streetcar going all the way down Broadway to Robbinsdale is very unlikely. Robbinsdale does not want the visual clutter of catenary poles/wires (among other things) in their downtown.

When you really think about it though, it would be pretty absurd to have streetcar basically running in parallel to Bottineau for that last mile. That would be a poor use of limited transit funds to have two sets of passenger RR tracks just a couple blocks apart from 36th to 42nd. In a sense, it might actually be more logical to run it straight out Golden Valley Road to connect with Bottineau there. In a perfect world, I'd take the streetcar down Broadway through Minneapolis, then via Oakdale Ave (serving North Memorial) and connecting with Bottineau at 34th or 35th Ave. The streetcar operation would terminate there, but the tracks would connect for operating efficiencies, etc. Plus then Bottineau would get the station at 34th-36th that it so desperately needs.

Real talk though, they should just work on improving buses in this corridor. Streetcars are a long, LONG way off - and not happening at all without more transit funding, which is looking less and less likely by the day. Even if money did fall from the sky, even a starter streetcar line would only serve Washington through North Loop, and maybe a bit down West Broadway. Building it all the way out to the Robbinsdale-Mpls border would likely not happen in Phase 1 anyways. Getting a streetcar built out to Broadway & Fremont (via Washington) would still be a huge, huge win, and would connect with the Route 5 there.

I'd love to see cost estimates for a "North Loop to Broadway" starter line, running from Washington & Nicollet to Broadway & Fremont (2.1 miles). That could be a conversation worth having.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » March 19th, 2015, 9:21 am

Agreed, we need to start thinking about smaller increments in our streetcar network. Whether LRT or streetcar, we currently plan long lines that are too big of projects to chew incrementally without having major funding and political will, and too removed from potential network end states to understand synergies of future routing and o/d patterns. We're stuck in this awful middle.

I'd like to see that first phase to Broadway & Fremont that you describe. It could also serve as a North Loop trunk with future branching (as a separate service) to the NE arts/bar/hipster district via the Plymouth or Broadway bridges.

If anything, I'd suggest a potential starter alignment that continues east on Washington through Downtown to roughly Chicago in the Mill District -- an additional 2/3 mi. Then, a future connection could hop on the old Milwaukee Road diagonal cut to the existing Blue/Green LRT Wye, where streetcars could be routed via the Green Line to Stadium Village (where some pocket track or branch would need to be added to allow for streetcar turnarounds without impacting LRT service). This would provide one seat rides between Broadway/Fremont / North Loop / northern CBD / Mill District / West Bank / East Bank.

But, getting back to Broadway, if it was ever extended west along Broadway, it should definitely hop over to Bottineau LRT and share those tracks to DT Robbinsdale. Then, a future option would be to build a single-track streetcar (or maybe LRT-spec) extension to Brookdale for this service.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby alleycat » March 19th, 2015, 9:38 am

Any starter alignment that doesn't make it to Broadway and Penn is a half measure. This whole study comes back to the Bottineau alignment skipping over Penn. It was agreed that improved transit along each Penn and Broadway would come.

Most importantly at the time was streetcar on Broadway. Now that we'll be building out the C-Line and Fremont/Emerson aBRT in the next five years we need this streetcar (or aBRT if that doesn't fly) to interline with these investments. It's .8 miles from Fremont to Penn. The curve and Penn/Broadway need this investment badly. TOD along that stretch and accompanying density could be a game changer.
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David Greene
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Re: West Broadway Transit Study

Postby David Greene » March 19th, 2015, 10:13 am

CAC applications due tomorrow!

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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby EOst » March 19th, 2015, 12:33 pm

mattaudio wrote:If anything, I'd suggest a potential starter alignment that continues east on Washington through Downtown to roughly Chicago in the Mill District -- an additional 2/3 mi. Then, a future connection could hop on the old Milwaukee Road diagonal cut to the existing Blue/Green LRT Wye, where streetcars could be routed via the Green Line to Stadium Village (where some pocket track or branch would need to be added to allow for streetcar turnarounds without impacting LRT service). This would provide one seat rides between Broadway/Fremont / North Loop / northern CBD / Mill District / West Bank / East Bank.
I think it's more likely that any Broadway/Washington line would interline with the Nicollet line and end at the Convention Center, to replace the 10's service there. I suspect anyway that there are significantly more people going from that corridor to places on Nicollet Mall than there are actually going to the University, or even the eastern parts of the CBD.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tcmetro » May 6th, 2015, 11:11 am

Open House

May 21, 2015, 5 to 7 p.m.
North Community YMCA
1711 W Broadway Avenue
Minneapolis, MN 55411

http://www.metrotransit.org/west-broadw ... and-events

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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » May 13th, 2015, 1:55 pm

Narrowing down the options: http://finance-commerce.com/2015/05/nar ... -broadway/

Good stuff here. It's been known for a while that there was no way a streetcar would travel all the way down Broadway into downtown Robbinsdale. That would just be silly duplication of expensive track infrastructure with Bottineau LRT just a block west. Also, Robbinsdale has taken a firm stand against catenary wires in their downtown & somewhat recently rebuilt street. I can't really blame them for that.

A cheaper alternative goes due west on Golden Valley Road and syncs up with that BLRT station, but that could be a deal breaker due to not service Broadway/Penn. Sounds like they have an inventive alternative cooked up to solve that problem by taking Broadway to Penn, then turning SW on McNair & back out to the GVR Station. Not terrible, I guess.

However, it really seems the best option is Broadway>Oakdale>BLRT ROW. The streetcar could end at 34th/36th (with a shared station with BLRT there) or alternatively continue on up to Robbinsdale sharing the Bottineau tracks.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » May 13th, 2015, 4:38 pm

34th/36th would be a no-brainer if only Robbinsdale would get on board with an LRT station there.

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Re: West Broadway Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby alleycat » May 13th, 2015, 10:56 pm

McNair sounded out of the question at the first CAC meeting, but perhaps I nudged it back on to the table. The city and WBC both see anything less than Penn/Broadway as a no go. Remember that this was born as a compromise to BLRT bypassing that same intersection. I can't make the CAC next Monday so I won't have any updates. I was going to bring up gauntlet tracks for the McNair connection.
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