Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

[ECtransplant]

. . . and subway or elevated is a non-starter around here.

Only so long as we let them be

[twincitizen]

For the first time in over 19 months, there will be a public open house for the 35-Lake portion of the overall project.
http://www.35lake.com/

PUBLIC OPEN HOUSE
Thursday, June 19, 2014
5:30 pm to 7:30pm
Whittier Recreation Center
425 - 26th Street West
Minneapolis, MN 55408

Reminder, this is happening now. See you there.

[mister.shoes]

Strib story on the open house:
http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/264013271.html

Documents:
http://www.35lake.com/storage/All_20140 ... ouse4r.pdf
http://www.35lake.com/storage/hennc1131 ... -19-14.pdf

[Mdcastle]

I sure hate this project. Close to 200,000 drivers a day are going to be stuck with substandard lane widths from Lake to 42nd for the next 60 years.

[Southside]

...and substandard rapid transit options to avoid congestion.

[mulad]

I was interested to see how this project gets rid of the braid -- looks like it has southbound I-35W in a tunnel, and both the link into downtown and the flyover to westbound I-94 go over the top of it. The I-94 connection has traffic entering on the left-hand side rather than mixing with the traffic coming from 4th Ave S and 16th Street or dumping it into the lane that leads to Lyndale and Hennepin. There will probably be a lot of furious lane-changing going on for people who really want to get off at Hennepin/Lyndale or be on the right-hand side of the freeway before/after the Lowry Hill Tunnel to get on I-394, but besides that, it should help balance the flow of traffic across the different lanes on I-94. It could also reduce southbound traffic on Hennepin and Lyndale a bit, since it makes it harder to get to those streets from I-35W. People will probably shift more toward using 35th/36th, 26th/28th, or other surface streets.

The 24th Street bike/ped bridge looks pretty nice. It doesn't have to be as high because the braid gets removed. They showed one side of the bridge having a ramp and a stairway, but I couldn't tell if it was the same on the other side or not.

The new exit for northbound traffic to 28th Street seems pretty redundant, though it's hard to justify removing the 31st Street exit because 28th is a one-way, making navigation especially confusing. But hey! We want 28th to become a two-way anyway, right? Doing that would allow the 31st Street ramp to be taken out, and there would be more room for traffic to mix north of the Street entrance.

They also really should have looked at converting 36th to a two-way, and just having the north side ramps connect there instead of 35th, increasing the area where traffic can mix after the southbound onramp from 31st. twincitizen and I talked a bit there, and he suggested a dogbone interchange -- it would require property takings, but not very many. The combined AADT on 35th and 36th at I-35W is about 25,000, though a lot of local/"crosstown" traffic would probably stay on 35th to avoid congestion near the highway entrance/exit. I think a dogbone can work with that, though it probably requires two lanes throughout (not so fun for pedestrians, but at least it can be set up so they only need to deal with 2 lanes at a time).

The new layout is kind of begging for implementing the Orange Line as LRT, though -- this makes the centerline HOV lane continuous, so why not just replace it with tracks? Running LRT down I-35W makes a bit more sense than on I-94, since I-35W is half as far away from Nicollet as I-94 is from University (and only twice as far as the Greenway is from Lake -- okay, 2.5x). As with the Greenway and Lake, if we can't tunnel under Nicollet, using the nearest grade-separated facility makes sense.

[Suburban Outcast]

The problem though is how far would we really want to put the LRT? I doubt that LRT will go ever down 35W given they already spent hundreds of millions in reconstruction from Burnsville to Downtown within the past few years and seem pretty fond of their BRT planning. They probably don't want to tear up the roads again unless for something like Lake St. since it will bring the number of lanes from 9 (since there are only 4 lanes southbound until 46th) to an even 10. I'm guessing thats somewhat why that there is the streetcar planned on Nicollet to still allow rail transit to and from the dense city neighborhoods in that area, while both suburban and city commuters who want a quicker travel time to downtown or Lake St. can use the BRT and other bus routes along the Orange Line/35W.

About the narrow lanes, I don't think the lane widths will be a big deal given the freeway will have 5 lanes on both sides now, it's either that or 4 really wide lanes given I think they have it set up like that due to the older bridges being too narrow for 10-lanes with a standard width.

[Mdcastle]

I just hope they're not using 60 year concrete for the substandard sections. Maybe it never will be politically possible to get 10 feet closer to those cute houses, but south of there the old narrow overpasses won't last forever. I do wish they'd put I-94 back to before they restriped it after the I-35W bridge collapse. Besides being narrow the new lanes don't line up with the concrete grooves so it looks like a mess.

[Tcmetro]

LRT was studied (and I believe also recommended) along 35W to County Road 42 in a mid-1990s EIS. Considering all of the reconstruction that has already happened, as well as all of the upcoming road work (35/Lake, 494, Minnesota River bridge) it's a sadly missed opportunity to bring rapid transit along one of the better used suburban transit corridors. I believe that there was also a sub-option of using the RR ROW along Pleasant Ave from 60th St. down to 96th/35W. I think that the rail corridor could be useful as a busway as well at times, at least for access to the HUB (huge redevelopment possibility).

Here is the excerpt from the project website about 32nd St-42nd St:

I-35W Gap Project (42nd Street to 32nd Street)

There is a short section of the freeway between the Crosstown Commons area and the Transit/Access project (approximately 42nd Street to 32nd Street) that is not planned for reconstruction. MnDOT is planning to do pavement replacement and other rehabilitation work in this area, commonly referred to as the “Gap Project”, at the same time that the Transit/Access project is constructed. A southbound MnPASS lane will be incorporated into the design to complement the existing transit station at 46th Street and the proposed station at Lake Street. No bridges will be replaced in this section and full reconstruction is not planned.

In any case, I think the narrower lanes help curb excessive speeding. The section south of 46th feels safe to drive at 65-70 mph, while the segment north of 46th feels safe to drive in the 55-60 mph range. For the record, the entire stretch is signed at 55.

The updated Orange Line plan mentions that the 35W Minnesota River bridge replacement has been bumped up to 2017.

It also mentions how there aren't any bus shoulders from 82nd St to the Minnesota River, so transit improvements in that stretch would have to wait for reconstruction. Hopefully this means that a station at 98th and direct access ramps at 82nd can be built sooner than later.

http://www.metrocouncil.org/Council-Mee ... ,-Mor.aspx

The public comment report for the Orange Line is also available:
http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... mments.pdf

[Mdcastle]

At least it'll be better than my experience on the Goethals Bridge, with 10 foot lanes with no shoulders and the steel structure immediately to my right and semi-trucks to the left, that I paid something like $10.00 for the privilege of crossing. They say "pavement replacement" but not "reconstruction". To me that's what reconstruction is.

For those that don't recall the history, LRT was part of a $1 Billion plan in early 1990s dollars to completely replace the pavement from Burnsville to Minneapolis and take out a row of houses in Minneapolis and build LRT down the middle. The HOT lanes in Bloomington were supposed to be temporary until LRT was built (and Minneapolis fought and lost to keep them from being built), so were just built by blacktopping the median without rebuilding the mainline. Then the segment in Richfield was reconstructed with 60 year concrete after LRT was officially dropped and before the Orange Line really started being talked about.

[MNdible]

The I-94 connection has traffic entering on the left-hand side rather than mixing with the traffic coming from 4th Ave S and 16th Street or dumping it into the lane that leads to Lyndale and Hennepin. There will probably be a lot of furious lane-changing going on for people who really want to get off at Hennepin/Lyndale...

Probably just because this is a route that I often take (NB 35W to WB 94 to Henn/Lyndale) and it seems fairly common, I wonder if it would be justifiable to split the flyover such that traffic really wanting to stay on 94 could merge on the left as shown in the new layout, and Henn/Lyndale traffic could stay roughly in its current configuration.

[twincitizen]

http://finance-commerce.com/2014/06/ora ... rks-owner/
Kraus-Anderson (Southtown Mall owners) is griping about the Knox Avenue alignment. I'm sure they'll be justly compensated, but I hope it doesn't blow the project budget too badly.

[mattaudio]

Can we charge them for the value added to their property by an adjacent BRT stop?

[twincitizen]

I just read the full article...wow they are full of shit.

K-A owns the Mitsu dealership property east of Knox Ave. As we already know, the Knox Ave alignment on the Bloomington side is private property. The street was never platted. So about 2 acres of property will have to be purchased from K-A to build the Knox Ave transitway. K-A considers that small quadrant of land east of Knox to be "part of Southtown". When the Mitsubishi dealership leaves this site for Richfield later this year (they're joining Honda on 77th), K-A intends to develop that eastern parcel as a single story commercial building. K-A goes even further to insult Bloomington's plans from Penn-American, calling them unrealistic. Both Metro Transit and Bloomington would like to partner with K-A, co-developing that eastern quadrant, including a park & ride facility integrated into the development. The K-A rep sounds very focused on the here and now, not the long term view, calling Bloomington's expectations for development of the site unrealistic in the next 10-15 years. The Orange Line won't even be open until 2019, so this K-A rep really needs to check himself. I mean, yeah it is their private property here, but the government is actively trying to enrich K-A, not rip them off. Can K-A please get someone with vision in charge of Southtown redevelopment please?

[HiawathaGuy]

Perhaps K-A needs to hear from people like us, who believe in the future of transit. I think I'm going to write to them.

[twincitizen]

I sort of feel compelled to write as well. When I get back to work on Monday, I'll put some actual quotes from the article so we can accurately portray their position. I think the part that irritated me the most was the statement that Bloomington's crazy plans for denser development were "10-15 years in the future", as if that is some distant incomprehensible future, especially when the Orange Line won't open for at least 5 years into that timeframe. Not to mention that Bloomington already has accomplished the first phase of the Penn-American plan, including an 8-story building. Phase two is already on the way with a hotel and grocery store.

The other thing that frustrates me is that Kraus-Anderson presumably bought Southtown to redevelop the valuable land underneath it, not keep it in situ for eternity. Now Bloomington's vision for denser development is too wild for them? A plan that would permit K-A to redevelop at a density/intensity not typically seen in the suburbs and attain a much higher land value is just too crazy for them? They're mad because losing the strip of land for the Knox Transitway is going to split their "campus" and mess up their plan to construct a single-story retail building? Complete lack of vision. Kind of like their full block of surface parking planned for downtown, with the new HQ's entrance facing the interior of the block, rather than a corner. "Sure, yeah, we totally intend to develop the rest of the block someday...trust us"

[mattaudio]

It's almost like they don't want to make money here. Same goes for the entrenchment of their surface lot on their downtown block. Old thinkers need to go before they take the company down with them.

[EOst]

It's all in the public comments: http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... mments.pdf

We represent Kraus-Anderson, Inc. ("Kraus-Anderson") regarding the proposed Metro Transit Orange Line BRT project (the "Orange Line"). Kraus-Anderson manages the Southtown Shopping Center... which would be bisected by the proposed Knox Avenue alignment. We are writing to express serious concerns regarding the proposed alignment... and we strongly encourage Metro Transit to pursue an alternative route...

"Running the right-of-way directly through the Southtown Complex would leave portions of the property east of the proposed right-of-way with limited access. Maintaining viable development on the economic remnants that would result would be difficult, if not impossible... Moreover, approving the proposed alignment would discourage any future investment or upkeep in the existing properties because of the looming threat of construction that would be years in the future. The Knox Avenue alignment would create irreparable damage to the Southtown complex, and leave the remainder of the property as an uneconomic remnant...

"The Project Plan makes much of the fact that the City of Bloomington (the "City") is engaged in concurrent land use planning. The City's Penn American Plan, establishes ambitious and unrealistic expectations for development in the area that ignore the reality of projected market conditions... and any redevelopment is 10-20 years in the future. While Kraus-Anderson is hopeful about the development potential of Southtown, the Knox Avenue alignment would have a detrimental impact in the near term and pursuing this alignment will only serve to create uncertainty and economic stagnation."

Huge hyperbole, barely-veiled threats, and what looks like a subtle jab at Bloomington's pretensions to urban development.

[Anondson]

For all the over the top wailing, would KA think differently if the Knox underpass allowed cars too?

Maybe begin the drop Knox would need to go under about 30 feet further south so as to allow a "bridge-like" connection between the two parcels... The sort of whining out of KA casts doubt on them being able to help a city fulfill urbanizing intentions anywhere, their stubby HQ in downtown of all places isn't helping.

[MNdible]

Come on. They're just hard ball negotiating to get the best deal possible, just like KMart at Nicollet or Ryan at downtown east, or hopefully MPLS at SWLRT. They'd either like more cash, or better access, or preferably both. And if you owned the property you'd do exactly the same thing.