Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Archiapolis
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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Archiapolis » August 28th, 2014, 8:48 am

HiawathaGuy wrote:
Archiapolis wrote:Unless there are physical barriers that FORCE people to use this staircase to another staircase it is going to fail. If the football-game-going populace has a choice between mounting a giant staircase only to descend another one or crossing a street and giving the finger to trains and cars, guess which one they will choose.
My guess will be that they'll use some sort of stanchion or baracades, like is done at Target Field Station on game days. There are always plenty of security & police to manage those crowds. I'm not worried about that at all. The City has been very forthright about their expectations that Met Council and MSFA plan for the crowds accordingly with regard to this station. So I'm actually glad to see this proposal and information 2 years ahead of the stadium opening.
Yeah, I was thinking about Target Field as a comparison but that is much more of a "herding" procedure where everything is all on one level and it is a matter of lining up here versus there or traveling this path instead of that.

At Target Field, we aren’t talking about ignoring an obviously simple path and instead mounting a huge staircase.

In the case of the Vikings stadium proposal, there is going to be an obvious visual connection AT GRADE and an obvious path.

Patron:
<"Hey, look across the street at the million people flowing into the stadium that I'd like to get into. I should cross this street in the same manner that I have crossed streets my entire life to get to my destination.>

Cop: "Sorry, you can't cross this street as you have crossed streets your whole life; instead, mount that 18' staircase and then descend it on the other side."

Patron: …

“But it's right there, I could just walk across..."

Cop: "No, it's unsafe and holds up traffic."

Patron: <rageface>

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby mplsjaromir » August 28th, 2014, 8:49 am

mister.shoes wrote:
mattaudio wrote:This whole thing is a waste
QFT.
-1

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Nathan
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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Nathan » August 28th, 2014, 8:51 am

Archiapolis wrote:
HiawathaGuy wrote:
Archiapolis wrote:Unless there are physical barriers that FORCE people to use this staircase to another staircase it is going to fail. If the football-game-going populace has a choice between mounting a giant staircase only to descend another one or crossing a street and giving the finger to trains and cars, guess which one they will choose.
My guess will be that they'll use some sort of stanchion or baracades, like is done at Target Field Station on game days. There are always plenty of security & police to manage those crowds. I'm not worried about that at all. The City has been very forthright about their expectations that Met Council and MSFA plan for the crowds accordingly with regard to this station. So I'm actually glad to see this proposal and information 2 years ahead of the stadium opening.
Yeah, I was thinking about Target Field as a comparison but that is much more of a "herding" procedure where everything is all on one level and it is a matter of lining up here versus there or traveling this path instead of that.

At Target Field, we aren’t talking about ignoring an obviously simple path and instead mounting a huge staircase.

In the case of the Vikings stadium proposal, there is going to be an obvious visual connection AT GRADE and an obvious path.

Patron:
<"Hey, look across the street at the million people flowing into the stadium that I'd like to get into. I should cross this street in the same manner that I have crossed streets my entire life to get to my destination.>

Cop: "Sorry, you can't cross this street as you have crossed streets your whole life; instead, mount that 18' staircase and then descend it on the other side."

Patron: …

“But it's right there, I could just walk across..."

Cop: "No, it's unsafe and holds up traffic."

Patron: <rageface>
obviously your patron has never been to vegas ;)

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby HiawathaGuy » August 28th, 2014, 9:02 am

Nathan wrote:so I'm just thinking and I don't know a whole lot, but this is going to become a very busy station right? thearea is going to be filled up with lots of residentialand hotels and some office, plus a park, and people are going to want to check out the new stadium for pictures and such, plus be a main transfer point for the blue and green lines, isn't it good to get a lot of people off the ground out of the crossings? in a subway system you change sides at a different grade, they don't let you run across. it just seems equally expensive to move the station and change the road structure ( as some have mentioned) as to make an above grade crossing. the kinds of people crossing here are not all going to be lrt experienced and if small intersections cause skateboard accidents I'd rather not experiment with lots of people here.
I couldn't agree with you more. While in Munich last fall, all of their train platforms (outside of the urban core) had underground tunnels to connect the two sides. This allowed for easy transfers between platforms as well as not needing to cross rails.

Before this bridge was proposed for DTE, I wondered if creating a tunnel under the platform at this location might be feasible - since it's a parking ramp. But I'm not sure if the parking is 'actually' under the platform though, or just on the half block. Either way - the cost to build a grand plaza/bridge will certainly make this station even more accommodating to future growth & add beauty to the area.

This idea that it'll only be a busy station on game days is crazy. Once the two extensions are complete - I would imagine DTE will be a very busy station, because of it being a transfer point between the Blue & Green lines. Hell, they could even have a street car terminate at this station at some future point. Both from the north or from the south. I think it's important to plan ahead and stop thinking in terms of the Metrodome and the vast sea of nothingness that was DTE.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Nathan » August 28th, 2014, 9:17 am

in Frankfurt the suburban stations are like that too!

I dunno some people are calling it a waste of money but I argue to tell that to the family of someone attempting a confusing crossing in the madness which is a game or just everyday life and dies.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby mattaudio » August 28th, 2014, 9:25 am

the cost to build a grand plaza/bridge will certainly make this station even more accommodating to future growth & add beauty to the area.
Yet people still won't be able to simply cross a platform to transfer between Blue and Green Line trains.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Nathan » August 28th, 2014, 9:26 am

mattaudio wrote:
the cost to build a grand plaza/bridge will certainly make this station even more accommodating to future growth & add beauty to the area.
Yet people still won't be able to simply cross a platform to transfer between Blue and Green Line trains.
and you know this because you've seen the final design and have advocated this concept to the city and metro transit?

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby mattaudio » August 28th, 2014, 9:31 am

Image

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Nathan
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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Nathan » August 28th, 2014, 9:34 am

right... this is a concept being shown for the request for proposal... but take it at face value if you want or advocate for it to be better. whatever you think is more valuable.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Archiapolis » August 28th, 2014, 9:54 am

HiawathaGuy wrote:
Nathan wrote:so I'm just thinking and I don't know a whole lot, but this is going to become a very busy station right? thearea is going to be filled up with lots of residentialand hotels and some office, plus a park, and people are going to want to check out the new stadium for pictures and such, plus be a main transfer point for the blue and green lines, isn't it good to get a lot of people off the ground out of the crossings? in a subway system you change sides at a different grade, they don't let you run across. it just seems equally expensive to move the station and change the road structure ( as some have mentioned) as to make an above grade crossing. the kinds of people crossing here are not all going to be lrt experienced and if small intersections cause skateboard accidents I'd rather not experiment with lots of people here.
I couldn't agree with you more. While in Munich last fall, all of their train platforms (outside of the urban core) had underground tunnels to connect the two sides. This allowed for easy transfers between platforms as well as not needing to cross rails.

Before this bridge was proposed for DTE, I wondered if creating a tunnel under the platform at this location might be feasible - since it's a parking ramp. But I'm not sure if the parking is 'actually' under the platform though, or just on the half block. Either way - the cost to build a grand plaza/bridge will certainly make this station even more accommodating to future growth & add beauty to the area.

This idea that it'll only be a busy station on game days is crazy. Once the two extensions are complete - I would imagine DTE will be a very busy station, because of it being a transfer point between the Blue & Green lines. Hell, they could even have a street car terminate at this station at some future point. Both from the north or from the south. I think it's important to plan ahead and stop thinking in terms of the Metrodome and the vast sea of nothingness that was DTE.
To take it further, I hate this proposal the more I see it.

I forget the actual figure but projections of (roughly) 40% of game day capacity via train in a few years. Roughly 100k capacity x .4 = 40k people mounting this stupid hillock.

Someone pointed out that this block is becoming more and more difficult to develop with everything that is happening there (including this stair proposal). We can argue about it but I'd estimate that it would be ROUGHLY (+/- 20% more) to cut into the roof/slab of the garage, shore the transit lines, and create a designed tunnel than it would be to do this stupid stair idea.

I'm starting to sound pretty negative but it is ANOTHER case of "how did we get this far into the 'design' and not have this figured out?!" I've been at this train station on a game day and it was ALREADY a problem with pedestrians crossing all over the streets and traffic cops, etc. Nobody looked at a plan and said, "Hey, that existing problem is going to be even worse with the new stadium. Maybe we should plan for this." ??? It is mind-blowing!

This may be sacrilege on this forum but I also think that post-modern abomination/"sculpture" should be dismantled and a comprehensive design should be done for this station that includes a tunnel to the stadium AND, intelligent integration with a building that could one day inhabit this site. There are tons of examples of buildings in Chicago, etc. that integrate well within a building, this station should be designed as such RIGHT NOW.

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Nathan
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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Nathan » August 28th, 2014, 9:59 am

I like the sculpture there but I'm all for fixing this block, unfortunately with the park and the " views" I doubt it will be a building.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby HiawathaGuy » August 28th, 2014, 10:03 am

You have definite merit in everything you've stated. I too wish we either had more context as to why what you're proposing or wanting isn't a possibility - or I want someone to have the balls to call out Met Council, City of Mpls & MSFC for their inability to think further out. This isn't a new issue - and you're correct that it's only going to get worse. But, because we don't have any context - it's hard for us to understand why a bridge is being proposed and not a tunnel. There very well might be several millions of dollars worth of reasons (who knows what runs under Chicago between the platform & the stadium?) I would think with MSFC owning the platform parking ramp, it can't be about who owns what, etc.

Perhaps that's what we should be suggesting MinnPost or The Journal or whomever to be reporting on - not just picking up a story about a bridge and running with it...

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Archiapolis » August 28th, 2014, 10:05 am

Nathan wrote:I like the sculpture there but I'm all for fixing this block, unfortunately with the park and the " views" I doubt it will be a building.
I'm all for eliminating this site as a potential above ground building with any height PROVIDED that it become a well-designed plaza/train station/safe passage for pedestrians to the stadium. If this site can be designed as such, then sacrificing parking stalls and cutting into the slab/roof and creating a cool tunnel to the stadium should become a priority and this "stair to nowhere" should be axed.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby mamundsen » August 28th, 2014, 10:50 am

I've seen it a few times and it's driving me crazy... Please quit over inflating the new capacity to 100k. It's not even going to be close to that large!! Per the Vikings "by the numbers" the new stadium will be 65,400 (expandable to 72,000).
/end rant

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby grant1simons2 » August 28th, 2014, 11:15 am

So where and when do we go to speak against this?

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby Archiapolis » August 28th, 2014, 12:45 pm

mamundsen wrote:I've seen it a few times and it's driving me crazy... Please quit over inflating the new capacity to 100k. It's not even going to be close to that large!! Per the Vikings "by the numbers" the new stadium will be 65,400 (expandable to 72,000).
/end rant
Sorry, thanks for the correction.

I wasn't inflating the capacity in oder to bolster an argument.

There is going to be a percentage of 65,400 (expandable to 72,000) that takes transit. That percentage is going to have to suffer a stupid stair design to get to the stadium.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby HiawathaGuy » August 28th, 2014, 1:27 pm

grant1simons2 wrote:So where and when do we go to speak against this?
I would imagine that after the RFPs are opened, there may be a period where people can comment. Sadly, I doubt it'll make much of a difference. The fact that they are already at the RFP stage means that a bridge, of some sort, is most likely the only option in the cards.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby twincitizen » August 28th, 2014, 2:10 pm

Nathan wrote:right... this is a concept being shown for the request for proposal... but take it at face value if you want or advocate for it to be better. whatever you think is more valuable.
Sorry Nathan, you're wrong. Matt is correct in that there is no plan at all for adding a center platform. It would require additional street easements for the split tracks, as well as tearing up the existing platforms and tracks in that area, all of which are way below their life expectancy. I've been told that fact alone is a huge driver for the missing center platform...it would require destroying a lot of perfectly good infrastructure that is only 10 years old, all of which cost probably as much as this bridge and then some.

I really believe this ped bridge project should be tabled, and see how an NFL season goes with real world operations. I don't know if anyone noticed, but football is generally played the opposite of construction season. It really seems this bridge could be built during a single offseason. Let's maybe wait and see if it's actually necessary.

The good news is that no specific money has been identified for this project yet. Metro Transit would have to budget for it and there would probably be some type of (extremely poorly publicized) Met Council committee meeting. It's not a great deal of money in the grand scheme of things, but it's enough that I think it would probably be discussed by Met Council's Transportation Committee. If you feel strongly enough about it, you can contact Brian Lamb, General Manager of Metro Transit, or better yet, your Met Council representative.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby seanrichardryan » August 28th, 2014, 2:14 pm

Would placing the LRT tracks into a shallow trench be cheaper?
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

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Re: Downtown East / Vikings Stadium LRT Station

Postby grant1simons2 » August 28th, 2014, 2:22 pm

According to the experts on the startribune comments; yes building a tunnel would be cheaper and if we didn't build it in the first place it would've saves us all this huh-bub


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