Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

[mattaudio]

They should have really received commitments early on. "Target, you will have a station at your doorstep, or else we'll pick an alignment to Osseo and Maple Grove." These types of connections are important, but often disregarded.

Even the VA entrance seems needlessly distant from their Blue Line stop (never mind that the VA fenced superblock is a lost opportunity to connect the Morris Park neighborhood).

I agree... if Target is not on board for a good connection, end this short of 610. That way we still have the opportunity to extend it west right into Downtown Osseo once we finally figure out that suburban places deserve more connectivity than suburban P&Rs (see Chaska/Carver thread).

[woofner]

Sorry, this is pretty tangential to the conversation, but I wanted to point out that the VA campus isn't actually within Minneapolis city limits, which likely has something to do with its terrible urban design.

As for the BLRT, it would have benefited from a more engaged project manager and a more enthusiastic political champion, like Hiawatha had. Instead it got highway engineer Joe Gladke, and, I guess Gail Dorfman? I think that the only political support it's really gotten has been a lack of support for BRT along Bottineau Blvd.

[David Greene]

As for the BLRT, it would have benefited from a more engaged project manager and a more enthusiastic political champion, like Hiawatha had. Instead it got highway engineer Joe Gladke, and, I guess Gail Dorfman? I think that the only political support it's really gotten has been a lack of support for BRT along Bottineau Blvd.

You're right about the lack of the county champion but in my experience Joe Gladke has been very engaged. They've done a hell of a lot better engaging the community than was done on Central or Southwest. Unless you mean something else by "engaged," though how much does a project manager do other than manage the project? It's not like he's in on the political discussions.

[twincitizen]

A Target VP was (or still is) on one of the advisory committees. It wasn't random that the BP terminus was chosen over Maple Grove (which actually scored higher in the AA).

As far as a political champion, are we forgetting about Mike Opat? He seems pretty passionate about this line now. Surely he's been deeply involved all along...

[David Greene]

A Target VP was (or still is) on one of the advisory committees. It wasn't random that the BP terminus was chosen over Maple Grove (which actually scored higher in the AA).

Maple Grove also didn't want it from my understanding.

As far as a political champion, are we forgetting about Mike Opat? He seems pretty passionate about this line now. Surely he's been deeply involved all along...

Is he actively promoting it, though? I never see him talk about it in the media and I don't hear much about him from people on the inside. Dorfman was a huge champion for Southwest. She did a gigantic amount of lifting to get it this far.

If he cares, Opat had better get out in front of Golden Valley and the Park Board because the same arguments are going to be made.

[acs]

Does anyone really believe that the park board won't try the same thing here that their doing with SWLRT? They know where this line is going to go and what it will look like and could be raising objections or commissioning studies about the effect of the trains on the "natural light in the area" or the "visual impact" or some other bullshit. But no, nothing so far because we know they are just waiting for the last second to jump in since that's the best chance to derail the whole thing and preserve their little empire. Delay, re-study, increase the cost, sue, and then by the time its ready all the young people and other supporters are too old to care and have left for the suburbs or another city drying up the funding. It's brutal but this is how big government works.

[EOst]

The Park Board isn't doing this because of the parks, it's doing this because of rich people adjacent to the tracks. That particular dynamic isn't as active in Theo Wirth, is it?

[Anondson]

Is this running by the homes of 1%'ers like it is through Kenilworth, though? [/cynicism]

One more charitable thought is that the process for SWLRT was fuzzy enough that they didn't have good opportunities to put their foot down effectively against bad options to get them off the table. Nor were they given the options early enough to say exactly the engineering decisions that would get they to shut it all down.

[twinkess]

One other difference with Theo Worth: I believe the extension will run in an already designated rail corridor, so they wont be able to use the "park taking" argument. It already is a rail corridor!

[mattaudio]

So is Kenilworth.

[MNdible]

Yeah, as I understand it, what the Park Board is referring to as The Taking is the little bit of land that's immediately on the banks of the channel necessary to build the new bridges -- nothing else.

[mattaudio]

Maybe SWLRT planners could clarify the impacts of tunneling... All these NIMBYs and MPRB commissioners keep talking like a tunnel would put LRT out of sight and out of mind. But tunneling is a very disruptive process, even if the end result looks serene decades from now. I'd guess there's a potential that tunneling would be more disruptive than at-grade given the construction impacts.

[Anondson]

Wonder if the review will call out the noise levels at the ends of the tunnels.

[David Greene]

The Park Board isn't doing this because of the parks, it's doing this because of rich people adjacent to the tracks. That particular dynamic isn't as active in Theo Wirth, is it?

Yes and no. There are some wealthier people there (think Homewood neighborhood) but it's true they aren't as wealthy as the Kenwood/CIDNA folks. If the Governor and Park Board don't call for the same delays, it will simply confirm that money rules the DFL.

[sean]

One other difference with Theo Worth: I believe the extension will run in an already designated rail corridor, so they wont be able to use the "park taking" argument. It already is a rail corridor!

The stations will require taking park land. The MPRB should be fanatical in protecting Theodore Wirth, nothing wrong with that at all. We have one of the greatest park systems in the world. Alienation of our park land shouldn't be considered.

...it will simply confirm that money rules the DFL.

This is already confirmed, cf. Stillwater Bridge. Lately the rich environmentalist wing of the party has been losing out to the pro-development wing. I'll side with the environmentalists over the bankers, developers and other gentrifies any day.

[EOst]

Will the stations require park land? The railroad easement seems pretty wide.

[sean]

Impacts from the stations would spill outside the BNSF corridor into the park, according to Hennepin County. See http://www.bottineautransitway.org/libr ... s_6_11.pdf and http://bottineautransitway.org/library/ ... t%20D1.pdf

It will be interesting to see what effect, if any, increased freight traffic has on the plans for this corridor as discussed in the "Freight Rail" thread.

[woofner]

To clarify my ad hominems: Joe Gladke is working hard to get this project done, but he doesn't give a shit about what the project ends up being, which is why it is being built through five miles of parkland. He is a highway engineer, doesn't care about transit, just wants something impressive for his resume.

As for Opat, no, I haven't seen him very engaged in this project, but he does deserve credit for the LRT project itself, since he is the one who nixed the BRT that Public Works wanted to build on Bottineau Blvd 10 years ago.

[David Greene]

To clarify my ad hominems: Joe Gladke is working hard to get this project done, but he doesn't give a shit about what the project ends up being, which is why it is being built through five miles of parkland.

That's not true at all. It's being built where it is because that's what Minneapolis wants. If you don't like it, blame the city.

Personally, I'm fine with either proposed alignment as I've explained before.

[woofner]

When was Minneapolis given another reasonable choice? And by reasonable, I mean a choice that didn't involve tearing down dozens of homes. Minneapolis had to pick their preference of alternatives defined by the project team, which were artificially constrained by (a) Mike Opat's requirement that only LRT be considered and (b) Joe Gladke's ignorance.