Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

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alleycat
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » March 5th, 2015, 10:45 am

Actually Grant the stations will be going here at Van White: http://goo.gl/maps/rEK5w

And Penn: http://goo.gl/maps/IB4ji

David, I don't think your idea is that far from RailBaron's multiway boulevard layouts. I'd definitely want to see as many trees maintained as possible.
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby up north » March 5th, 2015, 10:47 am

fehler wrote:Ugly road? This is a very beautiful road, with wide, green medians and mature trees galore. I wish 55/Hiawatha was as beautiful as this.
I actually find Hiawatha fairly attractive, as far as highways go. I love the grain mills and the industrial grit feeling they give.

Olson is bland and pseudo-suburban.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » March 5th, 2015, 10:52 am

Is that big green area south of Penn & Olson park land, or something else? It doesn't show up on the Hennepin County property records at all.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby alleycat » March 5th, 2015, 11:01 am

I don't think it's technically park land. I've never seen someone use it like that. I'm guessing it's MNDOT's land. There was of course a time when this area had a nice commercial hub.
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby mulad » March 5th, 2015, 11:09 am

The speed limit along Olson Highway should be reduced in Minneapolis -- it goes up to 40 mph just west of Bryant, which doesn't help walkability at all.

David Greene
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » March 5th, 2015, 11:17 am

alleycat wrote:David, I don't think your idea is that far from RailBaron's multiway boulevard layouts. I'd definitely want to see as many trees maintained as possible.
Oh, maybe I got the wrong streetmix design then. When I went there I got the load error, hit "Try again" and got a streetmix with a < 3 foot median and a bunch of stuff crammed into the ROW. Maybe it was a completely wrong picture.

EDIT: Ah, "Try again" simply brings you to the default page where you can start playing with streets. My bad.

froggie
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » March 5th, 2015, 12:32 pm

I'm with Matt...I could not get to Alex's streetmix images.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 5th, 2015, 12:41 pm

I'm not sure what's up with the links, I tried them in another Chrome login and they loaded up just fine. I mean, there's nothing special about them, boilerplate MWB stuff. I agree with alleycat, doesn't seem like we were that different, though I hadn't considered a center green/public space like the WATM or LRT/bus sharing the same ROW. IMO that would work very well in a VERY ped-oriented environment with retail or active uses flanking both sides. I think we'd all like to eventually see that here, but it will be many years for a good chunk of lots to redevelop. I agree on trees, though - I had 6' dividers between slip- and thru-lanes for big trees.

froggie
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » March 5th, 2015, 4:02 pm

I'm getting a ROW width pinchpoint of 184' east of Bryant Ave, not 210'. This would probably have some ramifications on any multiway boulevard proposal, especially Alex's proposal that includes bus lanes.

BTW, the problem with Alex's links is that it doesn't include the www. in front. Usually not a big deal with streetmix, but apparently a big deal when including direct links to images.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » March 5th, 2015, 4:50 pm

froggie wrote:BTW, the problem with Alex's links is that it doesn't include the www. in front. Usually not a big deal with streetmix, but apparently a big deal when including direct links to images.
Ah. Now that I can seem them, they don't look anything like what I imagined. Here's what I was thinking, remebering that the buses share the LRT ROW.

Image
http://www.streetmix.net/DavidGreeneMN/ ... ravel-area

Image
http://www.streetmix.net/DavidGreeneMN/ ... ation-area

You could do a split station design to get more contiguous greenspace but that might reduce the usefulness of the parklets.
froggie wrote:I'm getting a ROW width pinchpoint of 184' east of Bryant Ave, not 210'. This would probably have some ramifications on any multiway boulevard proposal, especially Alex's proposal that includes bus lanes.
The above is on 160' if I understand things correctly. More space == more green!

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby EOst » March 5th, 2015, 6:10 pm

alleycat wrote:I don't think it's technically park land. I've never seen someone use it like that. I'm guessing it's MNDOT's land. There was of course a time when this area had a nice commercial hub.
Yep--looks like that whole area was leveled when they built the southern service road for Olson, at some point between '61 and '71. Amazing that it's been vacant since.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 5th, 2015, 8:01 pm

froggie wrote:I'm getting a ROW width pinchpoint of 184' east of Bryant Ave, not 210'. This would probably have some ramifications on any multiway boulevard proposal, especially Alex's proposal that includes bus lanes.
Yeah I guess that little property jut up east of Bryant is so small (with no building in it, either) I figured any serious redevelopment could buy it out to get a 200+ ft ROW to work with. Not that 184' isn't enough to do some great things, but it would certainly seem wise to open up options.

I like David's proposals, but it lacks things like on-street parking and left turn provisions. I don't know if buses sharing the LRT ROW is a good or bad thing for operations in this case, but at most the stretch is 1.3 miles so it's not a huge deal. Another thought, with the stations on the inside as proposed some buses wouldn't be able to use platforms; I don't think our aBRT buses will have doors on both sides. I really do like the provision for trees across the 160' expanse, I guess it all depends if we want this as more of a LRT + highway + greenway that may support some redevelopment or if we're willing to sacrifice some greenery for additional amenities like the parking areas that extend the ped realm, dedicated bus lanes, etc.

EDIT: I realized the areas for platforms/left turns would make for good tree space inside the travel lanes when not being used. Updated links: www.streetmix.net/alexcecchini/89/olsen-memorial-mwb
http://www.streetmix.net/alexcecchini/9 ... -mwb-remix

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby David Greene » March 5th, 2015, 9:30 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:I like David's proposals, but it lacks things like on-street parking and left turn provisions.
Could the median serve as a left turn queuing area as on Summit Ave.? I know the tracks cause an issue but I wonder if it could be done. Not sure what to do about parking. What kind of redevelopment are we expecting here? I'm expecting mostly housing, not a lot of retail and other things that would require a lot of on-street parking.
RailBaronYarr wrote:Another thought, with the stations on the inside as proposed some buses wouldn't be able to use platforms; I don't think our aBRT buses will have doors on both sides.
I hadn't considered that. :) Maybe a little mini platform could exist on the outside.
RailBaronYarr wrote:I really do like the provision for trees across the 160' expanse, I guess it all depends if we want this as more of a LRT + highway + greenway that may support some redevelopment or if we're willing to sacrifice some greenery for additional amenities like the parking areas that extend the ped realm, dedicated bus lanes, etc.
Yeah, that's exactly the tradeoff I was trying to illustrate. I honestly don't know which is better but I do know we should probably ask the people who live there. :)
RailBaronYarr wrote:EDIT: I realized the areas for platforms/left turns would make for good tree space inside the travel lanes when not being used.
That's definitely better. It still seems too pedestrian-hostile to me. It just doesn't seem great to have to cross over that much asphalt.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby Andrew_F » March 6th, 2015, 2:25 am

Forgive me if I'm making a basic mistake here (my experience with street design is minimal), but why do you propose locating your bike lanes or shared lanes between the parking and the sidewalk? With the green buffer already there between the "local ROW" and the "through ROW", having the parking abut the sidewalk seems like the safer condition.

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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 6th, 2015, 6:37 am

Couple reasons, and it's certainly a debatable issue for MWBs:
- Since the are doesn't have a door zone buffer, parking along the left reduces the odds of dooring since cars have only a driver on the left side quite often
- the whole slip lane area should be viewed as a psuedo woonerf - car speeds should be low enough that cyclists feel comfortable mixing and pedestrians can cross over to parked cars at will. Putting the parked car against the right curb creates a barrier and may make drivers feel more comfortable driving faster.
- if you're having the slip lanes accessed as right - in right-out within each block (or mixing to a right turn lane on the exit side), you can continue the cycle lane as a separate protected cycle track through the intersection with no vehicle conflict points

Certainly no "right" way to do it, just a preference of mine

acs
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby acs » March 6th, 2015, 10:30 am

For those who don't remember (which I suspect is almost all of us here), planning to calm traffic along this stretch of Olsen has been in the works since 2000. Even without LRT it was meant to repair the damage done to the North Side's black community when they put the highway in. Why didn't it happen earlier? White Suburban Republicans and a Pawlenty appointed MNDOT chair.

http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/295346181.html

froggie
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby froggie » March 6th, 2015, 10:47 am

Alex: a couple minor nitpicks:

- You'll need 13ft "lanes" for each LRT track instead of 12ft. Also, you'll need either 2ft on each side or 2ft in the middle to account for the catenary.
- Given that this is a state highway and a principal arterial, I think the narrowest lane width MnDOT would feasibly accept is 11ft.
- Not sure that a dedicated bus lane is necessary, given that the Route 19 will most likely be restructured due to both the Bottineau line plus Penn aBRT. The bright side of this is that it gives 11 more feet of buffer/planter in those locations where turn lanes aren't needed.

acs
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby acs » March 6th, 2015, 4:38 pm

Unlocked:

http://finance-commerce.com/2015/03/wes ... t-narrows/

Looks like the west broadway portion of this project was revised to minimize the number of homes needed to be taken. The overall ROW needed was reduced to 142 feet from 172.

Presentation:

http://www.metrocouncil.org/METC/files/ ... 73b1c5.pdf

twincitizen
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby twincitizen » March 10th, 2015, 7:38 am

The most interesting part of that article is this:
West Broadway is only a two-lane road between 85th Avenue and 93rd Avenue, immediately south of Target Corp.

The two-lane portion of the road is over capacity with more than 13,000 vehicles per day, according to a city report. A projected 20,000 vehicles will travel that portion of the road daily by 2030.
Planners were able to reduce the right of way needed by eliminating right-turn lanes, reducing lane widths, reducing vehicle speed to 35 mph, putting the trails closer to property lines and reducing the width needed for LRT. There are concepts for either two or four lanes total throughout the project area.
As we know, a 3 lane profile can handle traffic volumes in the upper teens. Also, obviously, a 3 lane road would be much more conducive to walk/bike access to transit, would cut down on road noise, etc, etc, etc.

Will anyone in Brooklyn Park demand a 3-lane profile instead of 4-lane? It's pretty safe to say that the projected traffic counts of 20,000 will never happen. There are other N-S arterials in BP that could serve as relievers should Broadway be constrained to one lane each direction (i.e. 169, Zane). Chances are, with LRT down the middle, some drivers will choose to avoid using Broadway, which is also good. They shouldn't be there if they don't need to be.
The county and the project office plan to recommend a roadway design to the Brooklyn Park City Council by the end of April. Feedback from Thursday’s meeting will be compiled and used to refine the design, Baenen said. Another public meeting is scheduled for 6 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. March 19 at the North Hennepin Community College Center for Business Technology, 7411 85th Ave. N. in Brooklyn Park.
Can anyone find those proposed 2-lane and 4-lane sections? I'd love to give that some scrutiny. Maybe even a streets.mn post.

talindsay
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Re: Bottineau LRT (Blue Line Extension)

Postby talindsay » March 10th, 2015, 8:16 am

A three-lane profile is pretty difficult with light rail running in the same ROW. Not impossible, I'm sure, but tricky.


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