Twin Cities' National and Global Image

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EOst
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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby EOst » April 17th, 2015, 3:23 pm

Sure, but that number is nuanced as well (eg. Copenhagen only 77% ethnic Danish). Worth noting too that none of this is an argument against adopting Nordic policies in Minnesota specifically, because this state is just as homogeneous.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby BoredAgain » April 17th, 2015, 3:27 pm

kirby96 wrote:
EOst wrote:The ethnic/cultural homogeneity of Scandinavia (except Finland) is easily overstated, and is used as an excuse far too frequently. France's non-ethnic French population is somewhere between 10-15% of the population (most of them from elsewhere in Europe; North Africans only around 5%!); Norway's is 13%; Denmark's is something like 8%. All of these countries are still vastly more homogeneous than the United States, and yet they've had very different outcomes.
You're right, though. The Middle East has oil wealth and homogeneous populations that aren't large (at least not in all countries), and the outcomes are different. The point should probably be more nuanced: policy is probably a necessary but not sufficient, condition for quality of life.
Some countries in the Middle East might seem homogenous to us, but in reality they are networks of inter-related groups with long histories of conflict. They have several Millennia of history complicating their relationships. What agreement and homogenous opinion does exist is not necessarily the kind that leads towards stability and progress.

The oil wealth is simply the main reason that we care about it at all. And it also serves as literal fuel for on-going conflict.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby Tiller » April 17th, 2015, 3:36 pm

@kirby96 There's nothing to indicate that it's not great for everyone, though. There could simply be additional, negative, factors that have influenced our african american community. Said community potentially could have been worse-off than it is currently is if it wasn't for those policies. An "option c)".

As far as the actual data goes, there are certainly caveats to the absolute racial gaps, which are some of the worst in the nation (when they aren't the worst). Our smaller base of african americans dilutes the significance of such gaps in circumstances like this (macro causes and effects), and also means chance has a greater role. With about 1/4 of african-minnesotans having either recently arrived, or (to a lesser extent) having parents that only recently arrived, those gaps are larger than they are when that variable is controlled. There is also the fact that our racial disparities are some of the fastest shrinking ones in the nation.

@at40man Detroit mostly failed because of the auto industry's failure, in addition to a significant problem with political corruption.

@kirby96 what boredagain said. sectarian conflict there is significant.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby kirby96 » April 17th, 2015, 3:40 pm

EOst wrote:Sure, but that number is nuanced as well (eg. Copenhagen only 77% ethnic Danish). Worth noting too that none of this is an argument against adopting Nordic policies in Minnesota specifically, because this state is just as homogeneous.

That's what I'm saying: similar circumstances exist (relatively wealthy, stable, and easily governable populations). Even more than policy these are baseline necessary conditions. They don't necessarily exist elsewhere and can't readily be replicated, and thus I think we take policy credit that isn't due us, and as evidence a la the Post: look at black folks in the Twin Cities. I think the more appropriate level of credit would be at best, "at least we didn't screw up the natural advantages we had", or at worst the stated argument that our policies only help the white folks.

It would sort of be like The Strib coming out with an article touting the 'Edina School Miracle' and suggesting the way that Edina Schools are run should be mimicked elsewhere in Minnesota. Well sure, but...

(...actually it's likely even more ridiculous than that because I would bet that minority students in Edina schools actually DO perform better than those elsewhere which we do not see in the 'Minneapolis Miracle')

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby kirby96 » April 17th, 2015, 3:42 pm

BoredAgain wrote:Some countries in the Middle East might seem homogenous to us, but in reality they are networks of inter-related groups with long histories of conflict. They have several Millennia of history complicating their relationships. What agreement and homogenous opinion does exist is not necessarily the kind that leads towards stability and progress.

The oil wealth is simply the main reason that we care about it at all. And it also serves as literal fuel for on-going conflict.
Good point. The countries themselves are pretty much artifical lines in the sand left by colonists with little regard to tribal history. That sort of supports my point though: tough place to govern.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby kirby96 » April 17th, 2015, 3:47 pm

Tiller wrote:@kirby96 There's nothing to indicate that it's not great for everyone, though. There could simply be additional, negative, factors that have influenced our african american community. Said community potentially could have been worse-off than it is currently is if it wasn't for those policies. An "option c)".
Certainly true. It could very well be a double-edged sword where there exist not only underlying factors that 'make it easy' for Minnesota (as I think), but also 'make it hard' for minorities here. Perhaps they just aren't as obvious or haven't been measured. But wasn't a key point of the rebuttal in the Post that measurable outcomes for urban African-Americans in the Twin Cities were no better than in places where policy was 'bad' (which I think weakens that claim a bit)?

3 posts in a row. poor form. sorry.

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Tiller
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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby Tiller » April 17th, 2015, 4:22 pm

I would say that it is an entirely different issue. That "double-edged sword" would imply that those factors were zero-sum in nature, as though whites have benefited at the expense of blacks (lol charged language). Whether it be for everyone, or for whites in particular, a double-edged factor probably wouldn't be able to explain the "miracle of minneapolis". It is when everyone succeeds that society is most well off, including those who disproportionatly succeed.

As an example, we can look at the south before the abolition of slavery. The wealth of the plantation class was built on the backs of African-Americans, the former gained at the latter's expense. That isn't the whole story though. Southern society became stratified, with those not lucky enough to be plantation owners almost becoming as poor as the slaves themselves. The number one reason for abolishing slavery wasn't for the sake of black people, but because it destroyed white society. Inequality can be crippling.

When inequality isn't under control, whether it be under a communist regime like the soviet union, a capitalistic government like in China or the US, or some other form of government, it hurts everyone involved. Even the wealthiest part of society will become stagnant if it is built on exploitation, as they will run out of people to exploit. The gap between blacks and whites in minnesota has probably reduced our prosperity, and it certainly threatens our future prosperity. If our growing african american population remained as disadvantaged as they are now going forward, we would be unable to entirely replace the baby boomers, and we would suffer as a result.

Our prosperity up until this point has more likely been because of the relative equality among everyone else, as opposed to inequality between blacks and whites. Also because we have been very homogenuous up until this point, the latter hasn't had a large effect on our economy. It is ironically a fundamentally conservative argument to make, that inequality is the cause of our good fortunes. it's just that conservatives often append "because it motivates the individual to work hard". The Atlantic's article makes exactly the opposite argument, that policies which have promoted economic equality are responsible for the "Miracle of Minneapolis". It is certainly important for hard work to be incentivized, but a balance must be struck between the two.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby Nick » April 17th, 2015, 4:29 pm

Tiller wrote:The number one reason for abolishing slavery wasn't for the sake of black people, but because it destroyed white society.
Image

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby Tiller » April 17th, 2015, 4:45 pm

Nick wrote:
Tiller wrote:The number one reason for abolishing slavery wasn't for the sake of black people, but because it destroyed white society.
[img][snip]
There was certainly idealism involved, particularly for Lincoln himself, but both the north and south were still incredibly racist. You can't sell the abolition of slavery to the required majority of (northern) people with only idealism. However, the institution of slavery and the resultant economic model were terrible for both the slaves, as well as the vast majority of white southerners. There wasn't even a socioeconomic pyramid, with a large poor class, and mid-sized middle class, and a small elite (compared to our preferred model, with a bulging middle class, and small poor/elite classes). It was almost entirely plantation owners or poor people, with slaves on the absolute bottom. This contrasted sharply with the north's socioeconomic system, with a middle/working class growing in importance on their end of the market revolution. It is much easier to sell "the south will destroy your quality of life!" than "help these people you have no relation with!". Even today, most people don't put up a stink about the sweatshops that make our clothing overseas, because most people are rather provincial in nature. If those sweatshops were to imported however...

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby min-chi-cbus » April 17th, 2015, 10:46 pm

Viktor Vaughn wrote:That snow is an asset. The powderiest snow in the US, from what I hear.
That's only true on Alta -- the skier's snow paradise (or so I've heard....but have also ski'd it).

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby min-chi-cbus » April 17th, 2015, 11:02 pm

Tiller wrote:I would say that it is an entirely different issue. That "double-edged sword" would imply that those factors were zero-sum in nature, as though whites have benefited at the expense of blacks (lol charged language). Whether it be for everyone, or for whites in particular, a double-edged factor probably wouldn't be able to explain the "miracle of minneapolis". It is when everyone succeeds that society is most well off, including those who disproportionatly succeed.

As an example, we can look at the south before the abolition of slavery. The wealth of the plantation class was built on the backs of African-Americans, the former gained at the latter's expense. That isn't the whole story though. Southern society became stratified, with those not lucky enough to be plantation owners almost becoming as poor as the slaves themselves. The number one reason for abolishing slavery wasn't for the sake of black people, but because it destroyed white society. Inequality can be crippling.

When inequality isn't under control, whether it be under a communist regime like the soviet union, a capitalistic government like in China or the US, or some other form of government, it hurts everyone involved. Even the wealthiest part of society will become stagnant if it is built on exploitation, as they will run out of people to exploit. The gap between blacks and whites in minnesota has probably reduced our prosperity, and it certainly threatens our future prosperity. If our growing african american population remained as disadvantaged as they are now going forward, we would be unable to entirely replace the baby boomers, and we would suffer as a result.

Our prosperity up until this point has more likely been because of the relative equality among everyone else, as opposed to inequality between blacks and whites. Also because we have been very homogenuous up until this point, the latter hasn't had a large effect on our economy. It is ironically a fundamentally conservative argument to make, that inequality is the cause of our good fortunes. it's just that conservatives often append "because it motivates the individual to work hard". The Atlantic's article makes exactly the opposite argument, that policies which have promoted economic equality are responsible for the "Miracle of Minneapolis". It is certainly important for hard work to be incentivized, but a balance must be struck between the two.
You have great points, first off......but I want to chime in here, as I think the reason for the poor black vs. white showing in MN has less to do with opportunity, equality, upward mobility, etc. and more to do (or as much to do) with the circumstances for which these people moved to MN. From what I've heard at least, African Americans in Minneapolis or the Twin Cities LARGELY come from other Midwestern cities. And not only that, but they come from the worst of the worst parts of these cities, which is saying a lot when we're talking about cities like Detroit, Chicago, Gary, St. Louis/E. St. Louis, Flint, Milwaukee, etc. Many have come in search for an answer for a.) having no money, and b.) needing a place to live to give their families a chance to thrive in life. The rest of the black population is largely from some of the poorest countries on planet Earth, like Somalia, Ethiopia and Liberia. If they're not kicking ass and taking names right away, it's probably because they came from absolute shit. MN is fairly unique in that way, since most states don't have black populations that are as largely comprised of African immigrants.

I'm not saying that all is well with society between MN blacks and whites -- far from it -- but I'm saying that it ALSO has so much to do with the circumstances from which the population base has recently arrived (and continues to arrive).

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby xandrex » April 18th, 2015, 4:39 pm

kirby96 wrote:It would sort of be like The Strib coming out with an article touting the 'Edina School Miracle' and suggesting the way that Edina Schools are run should be mimicked elsewhere in Minnesota. Well sure, but...
As an aside: My roommate works in the education field and has been placed in and studied many school districts. Edina is pretty well known in education circles for being an incredibly well-run system, even for those at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder (or so I've been told). Several of my roomie's mentors essentially said he should look for Edina placements because it shows you how a well-run program actually works for (almost) everyone. And it's not just money - it seems they embrace the right tools for tackling issues, which is something I've heard more than a bit of griping about in other districts.

Now whether Edina can do all of this because of money is perhaps up for discussion. But I'm sure their model plays no small role in making the school district more effective.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby seanrichardryan » April 19th, 2015, 7:20 am

Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

EOst
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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby EOst » April 19th, 2015, 7:29 am

You notice how that article is constantly comparing Denver, Seattle, Pittsburgh etc. to "Minnesota"?

That's because Minneapolis and St. Paul look a lot more like those cities than the state as a whole does. Of course young people are leaving Brainerd! The statistic that a third of them are moving to WI, ND, and IA makes sense too; a lot of them are college kids who came to UMN and are, now, moving back in with their parents.

But that wouldn't sound as many alarms as a misleading article like this does.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby mplsjaromir » April 19th, 2015, 7:41 am

It's pathetic how dependent Millenials are on roads and bridges.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby Snelbian » April 19th, 2015, 8:57 am

Tiller wrote:As an example, we can look at the south before the abolition of slavery. The wealth of the plantation class was built on the backs of African-Americans, the former gained at the latter's expense. That isn't the whole story though. Southern society became stratified, with those not lucky enough to be plantation owners almost becoming as poor as the slaves themselves. The number one reason for abolishing slavery wasn't for the sake of black people, but because it destroyed white society. Inequality can be crippling.
According to who?

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby beykite » April 27th, 2015, 2:44 pm

Anyone familiar with the website wikitravel? Out of curiosity I looked up Minneapolis and noticed the "Stay Safe" section is pretty... ridiculous...? Its worth noting the same section for Lagos, Nigeria is like 3 paragraphs less.
Super Duper Paranoid Wiki Editor wrote: Dial 911 for emergencies and 311 for non-emergencies.

Despite its progressive and modern image, Minneapolis has some issues. Poverty, drugs, homelessness, and violent crime are no strangers to certain sections of the city - however these areas are generally off the beaten path and not traditional tourist areas.

As with any major American city, keep your eyes open and your wits about you.

Keep away from the Jordan neighborhood, Near North, Willard-Hay, Folwell, and Phillips. These neighborhoods are all dangerous at all hours of the day. Practice extra caution in (but do not necessarily avoid) Powderhorn, Dinkytown, Stevens Square, Whittier, and Loring Park.

As a general rule, avoid the area north of MN 55, east of Penn Ave, west of I-94 and south of Dowling Ave. This is an EXTREMELY dangerous neighborhood for outsiders. The section of south Minneapolis south of Franklin Ave, East of 35W, north of Lake Street and West of Hiawatha Ave. is dangerous at night and should be avoided after dark or while traveling alone. The Blue Line train runs through this neighborhood, yet is considered safe at all hours. Do not get off the Blue Line at Lake Street/Midtown station, especially after dark.

Be careful downtown after dark. A trend among Minneapolis youth called "flash mob attacks" has increased dramatically over the years. These "flash mob attacks" consist of a large group of teens simultaneously emerging from behind trees/alleys and violently attacking and robbing a random, innocent individual on the street. These flash mob attacks are very dangerous, and if you witness one taking place, walk the other direction and dial 911 immediately.

While the neighborhood is not particularly dangerous, exercise caution when walking in the Loring Park neighborhood, especially after dark. This section of town is known for its panhandlers and occasional muggings. Junkies are also prevalent in this area and may cause issues on the sidewalks or in alley-ways. If you witness an open-air drug transaction taking place, know that this is common in this area and proceed as usual. There is no imminent danger.
There's actually more to it than that, but that jumped out to me as the most sensational. Thoughts? Am I just looking into this too much. Seems a little excessive, like if you get off the wrong exit on 94 there's going to be an armed barricade of rebels demanding a toll. (Which btw has only happened like twice in my whole 20 years of living here...)

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby xandrex » April 27th, 2015, 3:04 pm

Sounds like it was written by somebody living in Lakeville or something.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby MNdible » April 27th, 2015, 3:16 pm

It reminds me of a friend who came to visit Minneapolis. They were house sitting for some relatives, and when they arrived in town, the relatives had left them a map (pre-internet days) with big areas of Phillips and North Minneapolis circled and marked "Move along, nothing to see here."

On one hand, there was probably some unnecessary fear-mongering going on. On the other hand, it was sort of true -- as a tourist, there aren't a lot of reasons for you to be hanging out in those parts of town.

Anyway, the article does seem pretty heavy-handed, and the whole thing could probably be replaced by a blanket "keep your wits about you" comment that could be applied to most big cities in the US.

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Re: Twin Cities' National and Global Image

Postby min-chi-cbus » April 29th, 2015, 12:43 pm

xandrex wrote:Sounds like it was written by somebody living in Lakeville or something.
Hahaha....seriously! There is almost no way that the author of that clipping has ever stepped foot or even driven through any of these parts of town (except downtown, but you can clearly tell they've had experience there, since they downgrade the crime potential even though it's probably the worst place for random crime like muggings in the metro). I can't believe that was published!


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