Riverview Corridor Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
VAStationDude
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby VAStationDude » July 7th, 2015, 9:26 pm

I favor the cp rail line alignment because it's really the only realistic way we'll ever see lrt in this corridor. Dave Thune and other Saint Paul politicians won't support double light rail tracks down west 7th. Tunneling is totally unrealistic and shared row street running street cars are not actual transportation infrastructure.

A lot is dependent on right of way costs. Unlike other light rail lines the rail row here is not publicly owned. Unfortunately CP seems to be digging in against relinquishing their row south of short line even though the only remaining customer, Johnson Brothers, doesn't seem like a business that would take rail delivery. Perhaps the row from Saint Paul Avenue to the Ford Site could be had for a reasonable price. The rail lines between the Short Line and spud are very much active. If row acquisition costs are too high, abrt with branches to 46th Street Station and moa is my preferred option

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Silophant » July 7th, 2015, 9:29 pm

I agree with Mikey. If this is worth building at all, and it is, it's worth building right, which, to me, includes spending the extra millions to connect to the actual downtown. I mean, we've had a discussion on how the Blue/Green transfer is an unnecessary pain, what with having to walk around to the other side platform, but that's waay easier than walking through the SPUD front plaza, into the headhouse, through the looong waiting area, and down a couple flights of stairs, or worse, the reverse.

If the Green Line had gone into the train deck, or was moved to the train deck, then, sure, absolutely the train deck would be the place to go. But, since it isn't, it isn't.

Edit: From the little I understand of St. Paul city politics, Dave Thune isn't going to support any LRT ever, so who cares whether he supports LRT on W. 7th? This is the AA. Looking at the Green/Blue extensions, it's pretty clear that if you start from the position of "We'll try for a merely okay project because we think that's what we'll get cut down to anyway", then you wind up getting cut down to a crappy project. There's plenty of time later in the process for tunnels under the U (or tracks on W. 7th) to get value-engineered away. Aim high, is what I'm saying.
Last edited by Silophant on July 7th, 2015, 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VAStationDude
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby VAStationDude » July 7th, 2015, 9:33 pm

I agree sharing Union Depot and Central stations with the green line and adding a station at 6th and 7th would be ideal. However, I just don't see light rail on west 7th.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Mikey » July 8th, 2015, 5:06 am

The good news is Thune isn't running for re-election (finally), so that should take care of itself.

Maybe the best course is to wait a few more years so everyone can see University Ave LRT wasn't the "end of the world" and realize LRT actually benefited the neighborhood as a whole
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby min-chi-cbus » July 8th, 2015, 7:21 am

The notion of "waiting" scares me personally, since we can't guarantee who is going to be running the country for the next 4+ years.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » July 8th, 2015, 8:19 am

I know, right? It could be Bernie Sanders!

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » July 8th, 2015, 8:39 am

But seriously. So the concern seems to be that West 7th, especially the part east of 35E, is too narrow to include dedicated LRT ROW. Especially considering we have a near-abandoned railroad right-of-way parallel to it. So why not this? Route it west from St. Paul Central Station, probably on 5th St (it could be on 6th St with the curve as part of a wholesale redo of the Macy's block, but we know that's not happening). 6th could become a three-lane two-way street with turn lanes and peak-hour bus lanes, especially west of Cedar.

My ideal situation would be to drop below grade into 5th St just west of Cedar [portal in the hill] then underground past Rice Park, United Hospital, and down Smith Ave before a portal in the face of the cliff just west of the High Bridge embankment. I'm assuming that's not feasible, unfortunately.

Heading west ouf ot downtown, cross Cleveland Circle and connect into Smith Ave. Work on moving egress to United Hospital ramps off of Smith, and work the rest onto one-ways to carve out the necessary ROW. Probably one-ways heading in from Chestnut and from Grand (emergency access and all that) turning onto Walnut Street for vehicular egress to 35E and the grid via West 7th.

South from there, it may be possible to fit on the western side of Smith Ave in dedicated ROW. The current street looks to be 44' curb to curb. So, it would likely mean losing some boulevard trees. And cut off the stub of McBoal St. Intersection at Goodrich Ave. Then the LRT would turn onto Cliff Street at the end of the High Bridge, where it can ride the top of the cliff before hopping over/under the CP Merriam Park Subdivision and onto the Ford Spur alignment.

Easy!

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » July 8th, 2015, 9:06 am

Easy!
Not so easy. I ran a theoretical on LRT along Smith Ave when I was creating my own Riverview concept. This is the best one could do with Smith Ave near the hospitals. And with this scenario, you'd need 2 feet from either the "Transit Shelter" area or the sidewalk on the left to support poles for the overhead catenary.

You would also have some serious grade issues to deal with along Cliff St. You'd have to cantilever the LRT over the cliff in order to make your suggestion work...the alternative being building a 50ft high bridge and gradually bringing LRT down into the railroad trench. This would also have the likely impact of precluding the possibility of double-tracking the Merriam Park Subdivision.

Lastly, it'd be a VERY tight squeeze on Smith Ave between West 7th and the High Bridge. You'd only have a 6ft sidewalk immediately next to a 10ft traffic lane in order to fit LRT in.

Regarding West 7th, yes there are concerns about the lack of width along West 7th, but those concerns are parochial and psychological in nature, not physical. West 7th has an 80ft right-of-way, which could support this. Left turn lanes could be provided at intersections where there isn't a station (like along the Green Line), the boulevard could be removed to widen the sidewalk as needed. And mid-block, the extra space could be used for wider boulevards or on-street parking. The main downside of this is you couldn't fit bike lanes in....that would require a 90ft right-of-way at intersections and station locations.

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Re: Riverview Corridor

Postby twincitizen » July 8th, 2015, 9:09 am


Image
Hybrid LRT/streetcar on this alignment. Mixed traffic streetcar north of ~Randolph, full-spec LRT south of Randolph to a junction with the Blue Line at Fort Snelling. Probably at least two more stations than what's shown on Froggie's map above.

Please remember that St. Paul recently completed a study saying this was their preferred streetcar line. Unlike the other LRT lines being planned in western Hennepin County, this one is not 15 miles long. It will be quite fast in the RR corridor, so I'm not terribly concerned about it losing a few minutes along West 7th in mixed traffic.

This "compromise" checks all of the boxes, minus serving the Ford site directly. And that's ok! The Ford site is a giant gaping hole - we have literally no idea what (or when!) anything will be built there. At this stage, you cannot use the Ford site to make transit ridership decisions. You can make wild guesses and fantasies, but you cannot legally count any potential ridership there towards a CEI.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Mikey » July 8th, 2015, 9:13 am

I had thought of taking 5th St to Smith, Smith to Kellogg, then angling across the Hospital's parking lot to Thompson. Follow the east side of 35E to roughly Western, then due south to the Ford Spur.

In the end though, it seemed like a LOT of weaving to avoid the direct, obvious path - West 7th itself. The really tight ROW is from Mancini's to the Burger King at 35E - where it is still a three lane section plus parking on both sides. If you are willing to give up the parking* then you only really have issues at the stations.

*I wonder if the street could be "Officially Mapped" to a wider ROW to allow parking bays to be added as buildings are inevitably redeveloped. ie: "We'll let you go from 4 to 6 stories IF you give up the front 15 feet of the lot"
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » July 8th, 2015, 9:29 am

Along the lines of what Twincitizen posted just after me, I believe you could do a full dedicated LRT along there if people are willing to give up a traffic lane and some on-street parking along 7th...my earlier concept could be used to restore on-street parking along one side in the mid-block sections. Alternatively, a mixed-traffic LRT could be possible too, though this would also require eliminating on-street parking, though adding parking bays with redevelopment like Mikey suggested (or going with mid-block parking bays in lieu of a wider boulevard) is also possible. Here's a cross-section concept of how it might look mid-block within the existing right-of-way. A corner station with a left turn lane might look like this.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » July 8th, 2015, 9:34 am

West 7th would end up like Minnehaha Ave from 52nd to 54th St along the Blue Line (or not much better). That's okay for a few blocks maybe, but I don't think they should do the whole corridor like that. What's the point of having driving lanes if there's nothing to drive to/from?

Another topic related to this corridor: The Union Pacific car transloading facility at Randolph Ave, along with the grain elevator next to it. Nearly 35 acres with waterfront and downtown views. Seems like this would be hugely valuable in the future.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby mattaudio » July 8th, 2015, 9:37 am

I'd still prefer a gauntlet track with dedicated ROW for certain stretches of West 7th rather than shared traffic ROW.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » July 8th, 2015, 9:49 am

West 7th would end up like Minnehaha Ave from 52nd to 54th St along the Blue Line (or not much better).
Not nearly that bad. West 7th is 15 feet wider than Minnehaha. Minnehaha/Blue Line is much more like what your earlier proposal for Smith Ave would be...both have similar width.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby twincitizen » July 8th, 2015, 9:54 am

I'd still prefer a gauntlet track with dedicated ROW for certain stretches of West 7th rather than shared traffic ROW.
Are there any examples of gauntlet track for LRT or modern streetcar anywhere in the US or Canada? If not, then it's probably not on the table.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby FISHMANPET » July 8th, 2015, 9:57 am

Looks like most if not all of the current uses in the US are to allow freight trains extra clearance at commuter rail stations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauntlet_ ... ted_States

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby nate » July 8th, 2015, 10:22 am

I agree that the line must serve the core of DT St Paul, and froggies' map and twincitizen's explanation of the compromises involved are appropriate. Would it make sense to have a station between Davern and Montreal? There's lots of low-density superblock-style stuff there, but also a decent number of apartments, IIRC.

5th St in this scheme could potentially be turned into a pedestrian/transit mall from Minnesota all the way out to 7th, with provision for car/truck access needed for only two buildings: Lawson/Infor and the Ordway loading dock.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Mikey » July 8th, 2015, 10:54 am

I agree that the line must serve the core of DT St Paul, and froggies' map and twincitizen's explanation of the compromises involved are appropriate. Would it make sense to have a station between Davern and Montreal? There's lots of low-density superblock-style stuff there, but also a decent number of apartments, IIRC.

5th St in this scheme could potentially be turned into a pedestrian/transit mall from Minnesota all the way out to 7th, with provision for car/truck access needed for only two buildings: Lawson/Infor and the Ordway loading dock.
In my dream world, 6th St would be two way traffic from Broadway to Smith/Main: one general traffic lane with bus lanes where there is room. It's about as close to a main bus spine as St Paul can fit. That would let 5th go away as a car route except for the areas you noted. A one-way access road should be enough
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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby froggie » July 8th, 2015, 11:01 am

Would it make sense to have a station between Davern and Montreal? There's lots of low-density superblock-style stuff there, but also a decent number of apartments, IIRC.
I thought about this and concluded that it would be appropriate if/when that area was redeveloped. I'd probably put it on Homer, though Rankin is a possibility. I also thought about shifting my Davern station east and putting another station on Edgcumbe.
5th St in this scheme could potentially be turned into a pedestrian/transit mall from Minnesota all the way out to 7th, with provision for car/truck access needed for only two buildings: Lawson/Infor and the Ordway loading dock.
My concept kept 5th St as a single-lane one-way. There's adequate width to do that, dedicated LRT guideway, and sidewalks.

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Re: Riverview Corridor (Alternatives Analysis)

Postby Tiller » July 8th, 2015, 11:26 am

While a mixed traffic streetcar portion would only cause a small increase in travel time, which would be fine, a greater concern would be the decrease in reliability. Reliability is supposed to be one of the advantages of lrt over buses, and we shouldn't sacrifice it.


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