RBC Gateway & Four Seasons - 37 stories - 519'

[MNdible]

On a related note, it seems ridiculous that this project only contains three ground floor retail locations and one ground floor restaurant. Granted, they are all thousands of square feet.

Presumably, there's nothing that would prevent them from subdividing that retail space if that's what the market demanded, right?

[Sacrelicio]

Yeah I'm kind of sick of quick access to highway ramps for suburban commuters driving our city street design.

Hate hate hate. I walk past the 394 entrance/exit at 3rd and North Washington every day and I can't stand it.

[Wedgeguy]

Won't someone think of the cars?

Right, lets plug up the city and make driving a pain so we can get people to move out of the gridlock to the suburbs along with the jobs that go with the gridlock. Real smart thinking on your part Matt.

[Sacrelicio]

Won't someone think of the cars?

Right, lets plug up the city and make driving a pain so we can get people to move out of the gridlock to the suburbs along with the jobs that go with the gridlock. Real smart thinking on your part Matt.

Yes, people will respond to urban congestion that makes it harder for them to leave the city...by leaving the city.

[EOst]

Yes, people will respond to urban congestion that makes it harder for them to leave the city...by leaving the city.

Maybe not people, but employers might.

[Nathan]

I know it's easy to make it an us vs them (suburban car drivers) situation but suburban employees are a part of what makes our city and metro tick, efficient places for driving I think are important. Flow is important, I understand that it doesn't need to be high priority, but I think having good efficient roads for our commuters is important. If they run home screaming to their family and friends about how awful the city is and driving is there's less and less chance of converting them and future generations to more urban minded folk. Balance is important.

[Wedgeguy]

Yes, people will respond to urban congestion that makes it harder for them to leave the city...by leaving the city.

Maybe not people, but employers might.

Finally someone that can see beyond their blinders. That was part of how we got our urban sprawl to begin with. I guess they don't teach us about that in school now days. Mass transit may be be part of the answer, but it does not cover nearly the number of available workers that do not live downtown or on a close route. Lord know how much I read about bitching about park and rides on this site for those suburban workers.

[trigonalmayhem]

3rd and Washington are the only direct route from the east that goes thru to 394, 5th doesn't due to the LRT. 7th, 9th and 11th all share the same entrance at 1st which requires left hand turns onto 1st before they can get anywhere near the entrance to 394. Washington requires a left hand turn that has a limited arrow and then you are waiting against on coming traffic which will only increase as the NL develops further. These are the things that I don't over look when I suggest something. I look at the whole picture and not just some small snap shot. Like I also said. I'm looking at future traffic from the stadium. You plan ahead and look at what could happen so that you are not wasting tax dollars to shrink something that will then be found to be a big mistake and then have to spend more money to get it back to ab acceptable status. I know that is hard for some to comprehend, but I've watch these kind of screw ups for 30+ years and they do not look pretty and it only makes things worse for a larger number of people in the end.

Closing Nicollet for Kmart was one of the biggest screw up and we are still trying to fix that at what kind of price tag.

Nicollet and Lake are both local roads and commercial strips. A highway onramp is completely different and comparing the two is absurd. Your entire justification is based around convenience and minimizing delays for drivers. Does it even occur to you that maybe we should not place them at the top of the pyramid when designing downtown roads that serve a variety of users and where pedestrian traffic is densest?

Here's an even better idea: kill most of the downtown highway ramps except those that lead into the parking ramps and reconnect 3rd and 4th streets to the north loop grid as local streets. We don't need to facilitate through traffic for highway commuters by screwing up the local street grid. People can store their damned cars on the edge of downtown and walk a little further. It's not worth saving someone from Plymouth a few minutes crossing downtown if it ruins the quality of life for those of us who live there.

[Sacrelicio]

Yes, people will respond to urban congestion that makes it harder for them to leave the city...by leaving the city.

Maybe not people, but employers might.

Sure, they could, but it's not like commuting downtown from the suburbs is a picnic now. People who hate working downtown already hate it (I work with these people) and employers who are adverse to being located downtown already aren't downtown. We shouldn't cater to freeway access for people who don't live in the city. And part of this discussion is event traffic for Target Field and US Bank Stadium, which are special cases. Not only is said traffic relatively infrequent, but also people who want to go to games are willing to put up with some delay already. We especially shouldn't cater to that.

[trigonalmayhem]

Yes, people will respond to urban congestion that makes it harder for them to leave the city...by leaving the city.

Maybe not people, but employers might.

Finally someone that can see beyond their blinders. That was part of how we got our urban sprawl to begin with. I guess they don't teach us about that in school now days. Mass transit may be be part of the answer, but it does not cover nearly the number of available workers that do not live downtown or on a close route. Lord know how much I read about bitching about park and rides on this site for those suburban workers.

Yeah just like how they didn't teach us about redlining, white flight and the suburbs bribing companies with big tax breaks to move there (which aren't sustainable long term as they're beginning to find out as their infrastructure ages). But the center city has been constantly asked and forced to take on the burdens of commuters at the expense of local quality of life and tax base. Making downtown into nothing but a collection of feeders for highway ramps might be great for those commuters, but there's actually people living there who take issue with it. If some companies want to move to the suburbs let them--there will always be demand for downtown office space and the younger generation prefers to work downtown for the most part. There's actually a lot of companies regretting their suburban office park locations these days because it's harder to attract and retain top talent there.

But you know, we just need to learn more about racists fleeing the city instead of actually discussing who the roads are there for.

[Wedgeguy]

We are trying to draw in employer and companies to the city and we want to make it difficult for them to retain workers who refuse to deal with the traffic. Like I said this is only one street that has a direct connection 394. the rest you have to meander thru city streets adding to the downtime that cars are stopped and adding to the downtown pollution rate. I see your point, but I also see the real world where employers will leave the city if it is too difficult for their workers to get to and from work. When you start to lose valuable employees because they decided it is easier to drive in the moving gridlock of the freeway as apposed to the stop and go of the stoplights. What do you plan to tell companies when you say you are going to make it harder for their workers to get to and from work. Will you tell them that is how the ball rolls here . tht we are prepared to lose jobs if that is what they decide to do to make their workers more happy and we lose our tax base and the workers whose money is spent downtown. That makes a lot of sense.

Edit, if those young people are living downtown then they sure can walk to work easily. Are there not traffic lights to allow them to cross street to get to the other side. Raising families DT is not as easy s living as a DINK. There will be people who live here in the city that still need to get to S MPLS and other parts of the city that don't live in the burbs. They still have to take roads and street home after work. Let's make life miserable for all even those living in the city when their fav restaurant closes due to lack of customers because a few big employers moved out. Some companies are moving to the fringe to avoid the DT, but are still close to DT for those desirable millenials. I won't change your mind and I've seen the mess over the years of trying to engineer a perfect place that flops, leads to pressures that could have been avoided if they only took their blinders off and looked aT the whole picture. You can live in your fantasy world and I'll stay planted here in reality.

[Sacrelicio]

Here's an even better idea: kill most of the downtown highway ramps except those that lead into the parking ramps and reconnect 3rd and 4th streets to the north loop grid as local streets. We don't need to facilitate through traffic for highway commuters by screwing up the local street grid. People can store their damned cars on the edge of downtown and walk a little further. It's not worth saving someone from Plymouth a few minutes crossing downtown if it ruins the quality of life for those of us who live there.

THIS. I don't think freeway access should be anywhere near downtown. It's always messy, lots of cars trying to get on or off at one choke point. Even people who aren't using the freeway get caught up in it. Make people get off the freeway way outside of downtown and drive in on surface streets. That would restore the grid and allow it to absorb traffic volume. This seems to work well in cities like Vancouver, or for a smaller example, Madison Wisconsin. You can't get off the freeway right into the main part of the city, you exit onto surface streets outside of downtown and make your way in. It takes a little longer but it's smoother and less disruptive to the core. If you want to go to a Twins or Vikings game you'll deal with it. It's not like driving downtown from the suburbs for an event is ever easy anyways.

394 should end at 94 with no direct access to downtown. To get to downtown you should be forced to get off at Broadway or 7th and take surface streets. Other access points could be in industrial or less populated areas like 35W around E Hennepin, 280/Huron, 55 near the airport.

[amiller92]

that will then be found to be a big mistake and then have to spend more money to get it back to ab acceptable status.

Here's where you lose me. What is the "big" mistake? Traffic rush hour and post game traffic will be a bit more congested? Oh well.

[Wedgeguy]

Silly silly, all freeway entrances are outside of the DT core. Theare on the edge of the business core. Or are you proposing losing all freeways in the city and that would go over like a turd in the punch bowl.

[PhilmerPhil]

You can live in your fantasy world and I'll stay planted here in reality.

Look man, you really need to cut it out with this tone. We get that you disagree with lots of people on here, but your constant mentions of your inherent wisdom and experience is getting tiring to us meddling kids. You're following of development for 30+ years does not validate your superiority.

[Wedgeguy]

that will then be found to be a big mistake and then have to spend more money to get it back to ab acceptable status.

Here's where you lose me. What is the "big" mistake? Traffic rush hour and post game traffic will be a bit more congested? Oh well.

I guess we don't want to keep companies downtown because it will be a residential neighborhood instead of a commercial district that it has been for how many decades. Offices and employers are not welcome because they cause traffic and cars will rule the streets. I have yet to see enough people on the sidewalks to justify dropping lanes for wider sidewalks. We want to much DT, but we don't want anyone outside of the DT core to be able to come and enjoy it, because they will be driving in with cars and make noise and spoil our calm leisurely want on 3rd St.

[amiller92]

That was part of how we got our urban sprawl to begin with.

I'm neither a urban geographer nor historian, but I've never heard of urban congestion being a significant causal factor to sprawl. It seems much more likely to be an effect than a cause to me (i.e., all the people who worked in the city didn't need to drive before they all moved to the 'burbs). How are you seeing causation running the other way?

Regardless, too much capacity can be just as annoying to commuters, via induced demand and peak congestion that slows them below the speeds that their context suggests is safe, as too little, where it's clear why they don't get to zip on by at 45 mph.

[trigonalmayhem]

The freeway entrances reach into the core like tentacles. I don't know what twisted definition of downtown you're using where there's no highway ramps in it, but it's not the definition anyone else uses. Also your continued assertion that all the businesses will leave if driving gets slightly harder (but still nowhere near as hard as bigger cities) is absurd and no matter how many times you repeat it, it doesn't magically become true. All those employers in downtowns of bigger cities with worse traffic kind of destroy your argument, and no amount of tenuous arguments about how it's totally different here because "____" will make it any less wrong.

[Sacrelicio]

Silly silly, all freeway entrances are outside of the DT core. Theare on the edge of the business core. Or are you proposing losing all freeways in the city and that would go over like a turd in the punch bowl.

Barely outside the "core" CBD. Sure, there isn't an on ramp right on Nicollet Mall or right next to City Hall, but just blocks away you do and it's a mess. I'm saying end the access well outside of downtown.

I also think we should remove all urban freeways, but I'll save that for another discussion.

[amiller92]

I also see the real world where employers will leave the city if it is too difficult for their workers to get to and from work.

Yeah, I don't think that's the real world. Well, that's not quite right. That's a possible world, but we're absolutely nowhere near that possibility. Even with all of the construction messing things up this summer, I don't think we were close to a world where the difficulty of driving during peak rush hour was going to make a big difference in business location decisions. Heck, the cost of parking is way higher on the list of issues for commuters than whether they spend an extra three minutes in traffic if the happen to time it exactly wrong, and yet we still have lots of businesses downtown.

And, of course, we can reinforce the other factors that make businesses want to be downtown if downtown is a place (yeah, lazy shorthand but you know what I mean) instead of a through-way for commuters.