urbanMSP

I don't understand how this line not getting built = doing nothing. There's plenty more to do that matters rather than building an LRT line so that we can go hit up some chain restaurants. Where will we have the UrbanMSP SWLRT Happy Hour? The Buca Di Beppo across the highway from Mitchell Station? The Ruby Tuesday at Southwest Station? Or do we go to the Champps at Eden Prairie Town Center Station? Why would we want residents and visitors to instead have reliable mass transit from the Blue Line to unique local hot spots on, say, 38th to: Riverview Theater, Riverview Cafe, Fireroast Cafe, Citizen Cafe, Maria's, Blue Ox, Tiny Diner, Blackbird Cafe, Kyatchi, Five Watt, Cocina Latina, Rincon 38, Grand Cafe and Victor's 1959 Cafe?

Rebranding the 23 to the "38" and running it at high frequency intervals, every ten minutes instead of an untenable thirty, would do way more to offers residents and visitors access to many unique destinations and for local residents in other corners of the city, like North, employers who don't require at least a half mile hike from the nearest stop

^and interlining the 23/38 with a St. Paul bus allowing it to reach Downtown St. Paul. But that's a topic for another thread.

That brings up another issue: the 60 something that goes down Grand, but not to Mpls, hence why I still haven't ridden it yet. But, that's neither here nor there. Can't wait for Mpls to challenge Columbus' ranking as the #1 test market city: more Applebee's and Champps than you can shake a stick at.

It is doing nothing to promote rapid transit or generally to encourage sustainable and transit-oriented development in the corridor, so yes, it is "doing nothing" as far as the SW is concerned.

Also, the hipster elitism is getting really old.

I don't understand how this line not getting built = doing nothing. There's plenty more to do that matters rather than building an LRT line so that we can go hit up some chain restaurants. Where will we have the UrbanMSP SWLRT Happy Hour? The Buca Di Beppo across the highway from Mitchell Station? The Ruby Tuesday at Southwest Station? Or do we go to the Champps at Eden Prairie Town Center Station? Why would we want residents and visitors to instead have reliable mass transit from the Blue Line to unique local hot spots on, say, 38th to: Riverview Theater, Riverview Cafe, Fireroast Cafe, Citizen Cafe, Maria's, Blue Ox, Tiny Diner, Blackbird Cafe, Kyatchi, Five Watt, Cocina Latina, Rincon 38, Grand Cafe and Victor's 1959 Cafe?

Rebranding the 23 to the "38" and running it at high frequency intervals, every ten minutes instead of an untenable thirty, would do way more to offers residents and visitors access to many unique destinations and for local residents in other corners of the city, like North, employers who don't require at least a half mile hike from the nearest stop

If there is an UrbanMSP 'Red Herring of the Year' award, I'm nominating this post.

$1.7 billion for a train through ultra low-density suburban areas as a response to demand for transit in dense urban areas is a red herring, yes.

ultra low-density mhm.

That brings up another issue: the 60 something that goes down Grand, but not to Mpls, hence why I still haven't ridden it yet. But, that's neither here nor there. Can't wait for Mpls to challenge Columbus' ranking as the #1 test market city: more Applebee's and Champps than you can shake a stick at.

63. One of the more useful buses on the St. Paul side. But routing it into Minneapolis would make no sense. First, doing so would be assuming that a heavily used bus route in St. Paul only becomes really useful once it connects to the other city so that Minneapolitans can deign to visit us plebs on the wrong side of the river. But you'd also have to either send it over the Ford Parkway or Lake St. routes, which already carry the 84 and 21/53, respectively, at decent intervals. It makes more sense to have people connect to it from Minneapolis via the 84 or 21 (which will get you 6 very short blocks north of it) if they really want to.

$1.7 billion for a train through ultra low-density suburban areas as a response to demand for transit in dense urban areas is a red herring, yes.

You're operating from false premises. The SWLRT is not being constructed for transit in existing density; it's to get cars off the road in the suburbs and to connect major job centers.

$1.7 billion for a train through ultra low-density suburban areas as a response to demand for transit in dense urban areas is a red herring, yes.

You're operating from false premises. The SWLRT is not being constructed for transit in existing density; it's to get cars off the road in the suburbs and to connect major job centers.

Get cars off the road? You must be joking. People there will still need their cars in order to get around EP. Any cars off the road will be filled in by those moving into EP thanks to SWLRT bolstering more sprawl around it like DC's Blue Line has out near its end in sprawling VA: dense residential developments exist next to those stations, but there's nothing to walk to, hence the packed highways. LRT doesn't resolve induced demand created by the number of lanes on the highway unless they're also going to take a lane away: doubt that's anywhere on the horizon. I visited a friend out in VA who had to drive on the highway for over 30 minutes to reach the end of that line: those dozen traffic lanes were plenty full outside of rush hour, but we're going to pretend that won't happen with SWLRT? Major job centers that are a long hike from the station are anything but magically connected just by the mere presence of LRT: they're either within a 1/4 mile walk of a station to be considered "connected" unless they have reliable high frequency buses to take people outside of that zone, otherwise they're just plain not connected. So basically, you're telling me the very problems SWLRT is being built to solve isn't going to solve them at all.

And what do you mean by "hipster elitism"? It's urban elitism if anything.

ultra low-density mhm.

Eden Prairie is roughly half as dense as Houston. Houston!!!

ultra low-density mhm.

Eden Prairie is roughly half as dense as Houston. Houston!!!

You just compared a major city of 2 million plus to a suburb of about 55,000 who has a wonderful amount of parks and conservation areas which take up where density I guess could be.. To bad the point of this rail in the burbs is to go past office buildings where people can easily hop on and go to a home if they live somewhere near where the line goes. This is a commuter line.

ultra low-density mhm.

Eden Prairie is roughly half as dense as Houston. Houston!!!

You just compared a major city of 2 million plus to a suburb of about 55,000 who has a wonderful amount of parks and conservation areas which take up where density I guess could be.. To bad the point of this rail in the burbs is to go past office buildings where people can easily hop on and go to a home if they live somewhere near where the line goes. This is a commuter line.

Houston, even at it's density, has a very successful light rail implementation. With ridership above 38,000 per weekday on a small 12 mile track, per mile it's one of the most used light rail lines in the country. Houston is a very large business center tarnished by miserable weather for big part of the year, much like the Twin Cities. Also, at almost 628 square miles in area, Houston is twelve times the size of Minneapolis. I would be curious to see if we could cut out a 55 square mile part of Houston that is denser than Minneapolis.

Get cars off the road? You must be joking. People there will still need their cars in order to get around EP. Any cars off the road will be filled in by those moving into EP thanks to SWLRT bolstering more sprawl around it like DC's Blue Line has out near its end in sprawling VA: dense residential developments exist next to those stations, but there's nothing to walk to, hence the packed highways. LRT doesn't resolve induced demand created by the number of lanes on the highway unless they're also going to take a lane away: doubt that's anywhere on the horizon. I visited a friend out in VA who had to drive on the highway for over 30 minutes to reach the end of that line: those dozen traffic lanes were plenty full outside of rush hour, but we're going to pretend that won't happen with SWLRT? Major job centers that are a long hike from the station are anything but magically connected just by the mere presence of LRT: they're either within a 1/4 mile walk of a station to be considered "connected" unless they have reliable high frequency buses to take people outside of that zone, otherwise they're just plain not connected. So basically, you're telling me the very problems SWLRT is being built to solve isn't going to solve them at all.

Cars off the roads into Minneapolis. This is primarily a commuter train.

You know what would develop if we didn't make the SWLRT? The same number of people, just less dense. You're proposing we cut off our nose to spite our face.

And what do you mean by "hipster elitism"? It's urban elitism if anything.

Glad to hear you admit that it's elitism.

Houston, even at it's density, has a very successful light rail implementation. With ridership above 38,000 per weekday on a small 12 mile track, per mile it's one of the most used light rail lines in the country. Houston is a very large business center tarnished by miserable weather for big part of the year, much like the Twin Cities. Also, at almost 628 square miles in area, Houston is twelve times the size of Minneapolis. I would be curious to see if we could cut out a 55 square mile part of Houston that is denser than Minneapolis.

No, you can't. Houston is very suburban....still.

ultra low-density mhm.

Eden Prairie is roughly half as dense as Houston. Houston!!!

You just compared a major city of 2 million plus to a suburb of about 55,000 who has a wonderful amount of parks and conservation areas which take up where density I guess could be.. To bad the point of this rail in the burbs is to go past office buildings where people can easily hop on and go to a home if they live somewhere near where the line goes. This is a commuter line.

he's making an urbanist joke because houston is basically a big suburb. also, light rail best serves dense urban areas/areas with the potential to become dense and mixed use. commuter rail is more appropriate and cost effective for what the swlrt is trying to accomplish. thats what mplsite is trying to call out I think. that if we are going to spend billions it should serve more people more of the time rather than suburban areas at a 9 to 5 pace on weekdays.

I don't think everyone here appreciates the character of the suburbs this line is running through. Hopkins and St. Louis Park are at least as dense as most of South Minneapolis and they are increasing their density. Furthermore, they have a lot of light industrial within walking distance of their stations. Minnetonka and Eden Prairie are certainly less dense but they have the job concentration and are actively supporting plans to increase density along the line.

People are going to be taking this line to/from stations all along the corridor. It's not simply shuttling people from Eden Prairie to downtown Minneapolis. Moreover, if the county and city of Minneapolis would get out of the way, we'd have some really nice development at West Lake, Penn, Van White and Royalston.

I feel like people misunderstand this line even worse than they did Central Corridor.

Moreover, if the county and city of Minneapolis would get out of the way, we'd have some really nice development at West Lake, Penn, Van White and Royalton.

This. In the long run, Minneapolis is going to get entirely new neighborhoods around this line, thoughtfully built for modern transit. The areas west of downtown that this goes through have huge potential for redevelopment; Royalston opens up a big new chunk of the North Loop, Van White is underdeveloped promising real estate near the Sculpture Garden and only four stops from Nicollet Mall (the same distance as Franklin or East Bank, which don't have anywhere near the same potential), 21st opens up a huge recreational spot that was previously fairly hard to reach (much like the Minnehaha Park station on the Blue), etc.

I understand the desire to put in efficient transit to where there's already density, but if we're serious about directing the growth we're going to get either way into urban and sustainable communities, we have to be looking at areas for potential new development, not just areas that are already becoming more expensive to build in (like Uptown or DTE). Providing transit to those areas too should be a priority, but it shouldn't be our only priority. Development in Uptown doesn't depend on light rail; development here does.

I feel like people misunderstand this line even worse than they did Central Corridor.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this giant park & ride is actually considered (by the actual plans) to be TOD.

Belt Line Station SWLRT by mattaudio, on Flickr


20140727_184917 by mattaudio, on Flickr

I understand the potential of those neighborhoods but I think it's important to serve your current tax base before serving a none existing potential one. if you were sitting at a restaurant and your server brought you Kraft Mac and cheese when you've been coming there for years but brings lobster Mac to an empty table to try to lure new customers doesn't that seem disingenuous?