Green Line Extension - Southwest LRT

[David Greene]

Uptown seems to be doing just fine from a real estate development perspective. Even without the 3C (1 or 2) route being chosen (you might even say despite the lack of prioritized, high-speed transit being planned in the area).

There is a network effect. You could easily ask why Downtown East hasn't developed, or University Ave. north of 27th or the whole stretch along N. 2nd St. North (especially Near North) has been denied the network effect for a very long time.

And no one is proposing to put a diesel train layover facility there, either.

I don't know which "there" you're talking about but the City Council is taking a vote in a month or two on whether to set aside land near Van White to study a diesel train layover facility. The *only* reason the city still owns this land and not the county is that Harrison residents have fought strongly to keep the land open for development. The proposed resolution is a compromise as it would set aside less land than has been targeted in the past (4.4 acres vs. the entirety of Linden Yards East). Harrison is currently deciding whether or not to accept it. Ryan of course wants to see resolution on this issue ASAP to get more certainty.

I'm just not convinced that sticking with 3A and the sub-choices within it for dealing with freight/bike cost adders is the unquestioned way forward.

I'm open to alternatives as long as they can actually be built and preserve the Penn, Van White and Royalston stations.

[David Greene]

If the 3A ridership predictions don't take in to account the Van White development, how did they expect 350 daily boardings? There is not a soul living within a 1/4 mile radius, and barely anyone within 1/2 mile radius (let alone the actual walk length and conditions), so I would call in to question the legitimacy of boardings predictions made by the study...

Bryn Mawr Meadows, Dunwoody, the Basilica, etc.

There's also the new Van White bridge (opening next month!), which would presumably have a feeder bus route to the station.

[twincitizen]

I guess I should have mentioned that I took the photo from the Van White bridge and it is (unofficially) open to bicycles. Go check it out. I'd say they did a decent job of preparing for the planned (but unfunded) second span. I can't see it being needed until there is a whole lot more going on over here, if ever...but it's smart that they constructed the approaches for the possibility.

So we don't get OT, there's a thread for talking about the new bridge: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=126

[Ubermoose]

The Met Council just keeps on angering St. Louis Park. The plans they make just show no deep thought at all and seem as though they are rushed. I was at the station planning meetings and it is very obvious they have their own agenda if this is what they have come up with. The meetings and public input mean virtually nothing if these are their best plans. http://stlouispark.patch.com/groups/pol ... e_133874e4

[UptownSport]

Don't people in North deserve some support for development?

wow.

Like a line that went into density of North, so people didn't have to pile into buses like cattle?

Or how about a token station in an area thats "North" in name only so you can say, loudly, that it does serve North?

[David Greene]

Or how about a token station in an area thats "North" in name only so you can say, loudly, that it does serve North?

Please go tell residents that Van White is a token station. Please do it.

Let me know how that goes for ya.

[David Greene]

The Met Council just keeps on angering St. Louis Park. The plans they make just show no deep thought at all and seem as though they are rushed. I was at the station planning meetings and it is very obvious they have their own agenda if this is what they have come up with. The meetings and public input mean virtually nothing if these are their best plans. http://stlouispark.patch.com/groups/pol ... e_133874e4

"The specific proposals for station and park and ride locations are open to city input and change before the Met Council’s August 28 decision"

They're proposals. They'll get altered. You've got to start somewhere!

[alleycat]

Or how about a token station in an area thats "North" in name only so you can say, loudly, that it does serve North?

Please go tell residents that Van White is a token station. Please do it.

Let me know how that goes for ya.

It's a token station that will be developed for new residents from outside of north. Isn't it technically south of the north Minneapolis border street?

[twincitizen]

It is south of the "equator"! In the absence of new development, Van White Station does nothing that a short ride on the #9 to Penn or Royalston can't fix. Stations can be added later, and in large brownfield sites such as this, I don't think witholding the station until an actual development plan has been approved would be the end of the world. If anything it would be a benefit, since the station could then be located & designed specifically for the redevelopment plan.

Latest F&C article: http://finance-commerce.com/2013/07/sou ... e-at-risk/ (free)

[David Greene]

Holy cow, are you all saying that a station that serves North Minneapolis and would be the centerpiece of a large TOD development on an industrial wasteland is a *bad* idea? Do you have any idea at all how that comes off to people who actually live in the area? Please please please *talk* to people there. Don't make judgments based on incomplete information. That is how we make bad decisions that disproportionately hurt poor communities and communities of color.

It doesn't matter that the physical location of the station is south of some arbitrarily defined line. The fact is that people from North will use it and the development sited there will be a huge benefit to neighborhoods that have long been ignored or actively disintegrated by the city.

People in Old Rondo were told to wait for the missing stations, we could build them later. People were rightly pissed that primarily white neighborhoods were to get their stations on opening day while the neighborhoods of color that had the higher percentage of transit-dependent people had to wait. Thankfully through very hard work they got those stations included in the opening day plans.

Van White is really not much different. It will serve riders and it is a key component to begin investing in Near North.

The thread here is an interesting contrast to the discussion about the Van White bridge. Go over to that thread and see what people have to say. Posters there seem to understand the huge potential of the Basset Creek Valley.

[FISHMANPET]

So you're saying the primary value of this station is not to serve the (non-existent) local population, but to serve as a transfer point for buses coming from the North side?

[twincitizen]

No. In David's mind the Bassett Creek Valley redevelopment has already happened. And his history of the additional stations on Central Corridor is quite over-dramatic. Snelling, Lexington, Dale, and Rice are major arterials spaced one mile apart and carry connecting bus routes. Hamline, Victoria, and Western (the 3 added stations) are all second-tier cross-streets to University and adding them reduced the stop spacing to 1/2-mile. It didn't have a god damn thing to do with race. Good grief.

[alleycat]

Holy cow, are you all saying that a station that serves North Minneapolis and would be the centerpiece of a large TOD development on an industrial wasteland is a *bad* idea? Do you have any idea at all how that comes off to people who actually live in the area? Please please please *talk* to people there. Don't make judgments based on incomplete information. That is how we make bad decisions that disproportionately hurt poor communities and communities of color.

I'm fine with the station. It could be a nice jumping off point to north or to parade grounds/Walker Art Center/Dunwoody area. It's got a great development opportunity, but if there was a station in Harrison it should have been on Glenwood. I think it's far more likely that north Minneapolis bus riders will transfer from Target Field or Royalston Station. Aren't we building a multimodal station at Target Field for the very purposed of transfering from line to line or lrt to bus? Do you have any proof that they're going to reroute all the northside buses to this station? How is that going affect the large number of riders that are trying to get to points south via downtown?

I'm on the Jordan Area Community Council. We have discussions about Bottineau and never talk about the bus connections to the Van White station. Eleven out of the thirteen northside neighborhoods are nowhere near that station. It would be nice if you stopped claiming to be the voice of the disenfranchised. I know as a white, male who happens to live in north I can't speak for the masses.

[David Greene]

I think it's far more likely that north Minneapolis bus riders will transfer from Target Field or Royalston Station.

There's no doubt a lot of Northsiders will use Royalston. Maybe more than Van White.

I'm on the Jordan Area Community Council. We have discussions about Bottineau and never talk about the bus connections to the Van White station. It would be nice if you stopped claiming to be the voice of the disenfranchised. I know as a white, male who happens to live in north I can't speak for the masses.

Where did I claim that? I have consistently told people to go have conversations with those in Near North. I am simply advocating for what those I've talked to want to see. They are very clear on the importance of this station to their communities.

I'm glad that you are participating in the discussion. It's really important to have people actually on the ground contribute significantly to our decision-making.

[David Greene]

Hamline, Victoria, and Western (the 3 added stations) are all second-tier cross-streets to University and adding them reduced the stop spacing to 1/2-mile. It didn't have a god damn thing to do with race.

No? The fact that census tracts with the most transit-dependent people were missing stations has nothing to do with the fact that transit-dependent populations are disproportionately people of color?

I'm not saying those stations were intentionally left off because people of color live there. That's not the issue. The issue is making decisions whose outcomes lead to disinvestment in communities of color. No one decided that we should skip Hamline, Victoria and Western because black people live there. But the result was a situations where stations in predominantly white areas were 1/2 mile apart while those in historic communities of color with a high proportion of transit-dependent people were a mile apart. No one explicitly meant for that to happen, yet it did.

Structural racism has very little to do with personal bigotry and everything to do with historical momentum and existing power structures.

[MNdible]

Preferred LRT staion spacing is 3/4 of a mile. Unfortunately, major streets were platted 1/2 miles apart (some more major than others). Where there's intensive development, it probably makes sense to bump up to 1/2 mile (or even closer) spacing. But these areas aren't particularly intensive, and St. Paul locked down the ability to significantly increase the intensity of these areas because the same groups that wanted the stations also didn't want the area to get too built up.

The whole deal was unfortunate, and I'm not convinced that the line is better off for having included these stations.

[David Greene]

St. Paul locked down the ability to significantly increase the intensity of these areas because the same groups that wanted the stations also didn't want the area to get too built up.

I agree this was a huge mistake but disagree that it was the same groups. Be careful not to make assumptions.

I think the line will be better. The trip time doesn't increase much and those communities have much better access. Remember that a lot of people there are transit-dependent because they are disabled.

[MNdible]

I agree this was a huge mistake but disagree that it was the same groups. Be careful not to make assumptions.

Without doing the research to back up my vague recollections, I'm pretty sure that it was the same groups, and that in fact they issued these contradictory demands in the same press releases.

[David Greene]

Without doing the research to back up my vague recollections, I'm pretty sure that it was the same groups, and that in fact they issued these contradictory demands in the same press releases.

I don't doubt that some of the same groups and/or people were involved in both, but not all.

Unfortunately, a lot of the discussion about Central Corridor was based around fear because the County/City/Met Council didn't engage the public very well as the project progressed. We're seeing the same on Southwest now. Though there are always a few sticks in the mud that participate but don't listen.

Hennepin county has done a *much* better job of engagement on Bottineau by working in partnership with groups like NTN and the neighborhoods. I've still heard a lot of fear expressed by those new to the project but I have also seen that fear wane as they are brought up to speed and given time to digest it. Engagement can't be a few meetings that occur as the project hits certain major milestones. It must be a continual process.

[woofner]

I think it's far more likely that north Minneapolis bus riders will transfer from Target Field or Royalston Station.

There's no doubt a lot of Northsiders will use Royalston. Maybe more than Van White.

I've never been able to find any plans for transit on Van White, and they don't appear to be in the DEIS, LPA or AA docs (neither, for that matter, is a rerouting of the 19 to terminate at the Penn Ave station). That gives us the freedom to speculate: what would a Van White feeder bus look like? Would it be a branch of the 5, the 9, or the 19? Personally, I would favor a new all-day route that runs on 55 from the Plymouth industrial districts, then goes down Van White to Dunwoody and up Hennepin to terminate downtown (or as an overly-long extension of the 61 maybe). But I can't think of an alternative that wouldn't inconvenience those riders continuing downtown in order to detour to the Van White station. Can you?

But the result was a situations where stations in predominantly white areas were 1/2 mile apart while those in historic communities of color with a high proportion of transit-dependent people were a mile apart.

In St Paul the only stations outside Downtown that were originally a 1/2 mile apart were Fairview and Snelling, and I'd say that calling that area predominantly white ignores a substantial minority (mostly African-American) presence. In Minneapolis the stations were closer together but clearly that is due to the density and student presence.