urbanMSP

I should clarify that I'm not thinking of the Nicollet Hotel block as a good site for a major transit center. I think that if they were to build a layover facility there, it would be a good opportunity to incorporate quality waiting facilities to accommodate that riders that already wait there. I can't help mention that I'd like to see Washington used as a transit corridor, and if that were to happen, the facility would be more useful for riders, but I don't think that's a make it or break it. Like I say, there are already a lot of riders boarding and alighting here due to it being the terminus for one of the region's most popular routes and located within walking distance of tens of thousands of jobs and households.

It's very generous of you, MNdible, to expend so much energy on changing my mind, but I don't think we really disagree that much. Nicollet Hotel block is objectively a better site for a layover facility, and the Gateway Ramp is objectively a cheaper site. There is certainly a cost threshold beyond which it would not be worth it to build the layover facility at the Nicollet Hotel site, but there is also very little doubt in my mind that eventually we will want to build some kind of underground garage here, and at that point it will presumably be much more expensive because the park will already have been built (circa 2085).

And I'm not sure combining and underground layover facility with a park is quite the unique design challenge you imagine. If you want, I can waste some time coming up with examples of these from all over the world, including the USA. Here's an example of a park full of people who have no idea how compromised its design is, poor things.

It's very generous of you, MNdible, to expend so much energy on changing my mind...

To be clear, because sometimes it’s hard to convey intent on the internet:

Redisciple, when I said that I wasn’t going to change your mind, it wasn’t to suggest that you’re wrong or even that you’re as stubborn as I am. Just that we could go back and forth on this, and each present good sound arguments that would go to show that there are different, valid ways of looking at the question.

Your posts are always top-notch, even when I disagree with you.

^ I could say the same for you, buddy. Group hug!

[verklempt!]

Go get a room, you two!

I don't think anyone posted this from the blog at the start of this thread? I think it's an old vision.



I think they should just end Nicollet at 4th...what is the point of having the street go through the middle of the park? If it is that much of a problem for buses, just make a bus lane going the other direction on 4th...there is no need for that last block of the mall. Perhaps a symbolic sidewalk in the streets place. I think a park would be great, but whatever goes here, it needs to have identity, and not just be a green space. It needs to have some sort of landmark to make it a destination....like some of the items in Millenium park, or the Cherry and Spoonbridge.

An unfortunate aspect about this location is that it is bounded by three very auto-centric roads. You can't really access the park without crossing at least one of them. This area still feels like this...

An unfortunate aspect about this location is that it is bounded by three very auto-centric roads. You can't really access the park without crossing at least one of them. This area still feels like this...

At the Washington Avenue public input meeting Tuesday, there was a lot of talk of traffic calming, less lanes, and greening it up, I don't think the park should be planned with today's street conditions, as this neighborhood matures, I think it will loose some of that auto need.

An unfortunate aspect about this location is that it is bounded by three very auto-centric roads.

For sure. The one 911 call I've made was when somebody got hit crossing Washington at Nicollet/ING Building. That intersection pisses me off royally, from a pedestrian and driver's point of view. Great place for a park...not so much. I agree with the poster who mentioned stopping Nicollet Mall at 3rd. Still, this park will feel like you're having a picnic in the middle of some exhaust-fumed interchange.

I picture something with single story retail on three corners with sloping green roofs that act as lawns and amphitheater seating, and insulate the park from vehicular traffic, as well as a bridge for bicycles and pedestrians to make a direct connection to the river. The concerns you all expressare all very valid, but not in such a wary that it's a bad idea, just a lot of good constraint for even better design.

Eh, Millennium Park is between pretty much a freeway and a road with a non cross-able median in the middle of it, and it is a great park...not that this will be like Millennium park. Just sayin.

It does appear to have a video water wall in the rendering...

An unfortunate aspect about this location is that it is bounded by three very auto-centric roads. You can't really access the park without crossing at least one of them. This area still feels like this...

At the Washington Avenue public input meeting Tuesday, there was a lot of talk of traffic calming, less lanes, and greening it up, I don't think the park should be planned with today's street conditions, as this neighborhood matures, I think it will loose some of that auto need.

Can you give more specifics? Was looking online for coverage of the meeting, but didn't find anything as of yet.

I like it Foto. Definately would create a draw for visitors and residents a like. At the least, I think they should build a glass cafe/restaurant overlooking the park to stimulate use/activity. The current Gateway Park also needs improvement.

Does anyone know who prunes the trees downtown? Is it contracted out, done by the Park District or by untrained city employees? Doesn't seem like the trees are properly pruned/shaped and fertilized.

And I'm not sure combining and underground layover facility with a park is quite the unique design challenge you imagine. If you want, I can waste some time coming up with examples of these from all over the world, including the USA. Here's an example of a park full of people who have no idea how compromised its design is, poor things.

Another example is Mellon Square Park here in downtown Pittsburgh, which houses public parking and Port Authority offices underneath it. Although, this example is not the best.....it interacts with pedestrians at street level *wonderfully* from the William Penn Place side, pretty well from the Smithfield Street side, and absolutely terribly from the Oliver and 6th Avenue sides.

They have had that park shut down recently, however. I am not sure what they are doing, but I am hopeful that they might be providing some more welcoming pedestrian access through the un-Godly concrete walls on Oliver and 6th...

Is there any concern that this would become a bum park? At present there's not a lot of pedestrian action in the area, and it doesn't seem inconceivable that the guys sitting around the library looking at porn all day would naturally gravitate and become the main tenants of this park during the summers.

I would think foto's concept, with the park almost serving as an off-ramp for bikes coming from NE and the river trails, would give the park enough regular traffic to keep it from being seedy.

Isn't that the government building wouldn't want that overlooking a park that I'm chillin in

Eh, Millennium Park is between pretty much a freeway and a road with a non cross-able median in the middle of it, and it is a great park...not that this will be like Millennium park. Just sayin.

Actually, you know what seems worse to me is Lincoln Park. It is also used as a bus transit area and buses fume up and down the streets surrounding Lincoln Park on all sides. I used to live in that area (briefly with my family) and I'd try to run in the park and any time the pathway was adjacent to the street I would almost choke in the bus fumes! It's still an unbelievably beautiful park -- just a bit "urban" to say the least!

I think trees and shrubbery do plenty to buffer that kind of thing though, but anything more than nothing would be a good place to start!

I like it Foto. Definately would create a draw for visitors and residents a like. At the least, I think they should build a glass cafe/restaurant overlooking the park to stimulate use/activity. The current Gateway Park also needs improvement.

Does anyone know who prunes the trees downtown? Is it contracted out, done by the Park District or by untrained city employees? Doesn't seem like the trees are properly pruned/shaped and fertilized.

That's a good idea too!

Sounds like a business opportunity....

Eh, Millennium Park is between pretty much a freeway and a road with a non cross-able median in the middle of it, and it is a great park...not that this will be like Millennium park. Just sayin.

Actually, you know what seems worse to me is Lincoln Park. It is also used as a bus transit area and buses fume up and down the streets surrounding Lincoln Park on all sides. I used to live in that area (briefly with my family) and I'd try to run in the park and any time the pathway was adjacent to the street I would almost choke in the bus fumes! It's still an unbelievably beautiful park -- just a bit "urban" to say the least!

I think trees and shrubbery do plenty to buffer that kind of thing though, but anything more than nothing would be a good place to start!

Back in 2005 I was on Nicollet mall during afternoon rush hour, and once I got back to my dorm I had to lay down because I was nauseous from all the fumes. Now I think MetroTransit only runs the newer buses that give off a lot fewer fumes, and I think they emphasize hybrid buses as well. I'm not sure if bus fumes are as much of a problem now as they used to be.