Nicollet-Central Streetcar

[UptownSport]

I'm sure everyone reading this has at some point been on a bus that took an unfamiliar turn and you thought to yourself: "Hmm, now what number bus is this again?"

I just got a facial tic ...

[mplser]

oh my god. Once I got on what I thought was the 6 to get from downtown to Uptown, and all the sudden it turns on to the highway and i find myself at ridgedale...

[lordmoke]

As much as I would love to see both the Nicollet and Midtown streetcars built, I'd rather see the bus lines reorganized. They are a mess. I've had the "Oh crap what bus am I on?" moment many times on buses. That shouldn't happen to anyone, especially people who live here. I can't imagine being a tourist and trying to get around with our bus system.

[RailBaronYarr]

I'm surprised so many people think tourism is a big contributing factor to decisions we make. I've seen on this thread from a couple people that a streetcar would be better for tourists. First, I support streetcars if only slightly. But let's be honest about our town. Tourism is not a major draw. And it shouldn't be. Cities with a large tourism base tend to be less livable than ones where the city is successful simply because. I'd rather build streets, buildings, transit, etc with our own citizens in mind first and tourists like #10 on the priority.

Now, if the sentiment is simply 'we want to build a transit system so easy that someone from out of town or a rare user would have no problem understanding it' then I'm totally behind that. Human-Centered Design will pay dividends on ridership. I'm just not all that concerned about tourists riding the 3C.

[mplsjaromir]

I think one could stretch the term "tourist" to include the tens of thousands of DT office workers who do not leave the core unless they are driving home. I could imagine that DT workers would feel apprehensive to have a staff lunch or a client meeting outside of downtown because no one is going to walk to 25th and Nicollet. A streetcar would make many more destinations available to the 120,000 daily downtown workers. While they could theoretically take a bus now I am sure many would never even consider the idea.

[helsinki]

A better term might be "out-of-towners". There are a lot of these. The convention center is a significant draw. Sports games draw diehard fans of the team on the road. Most importantly, lots of people come on business.

Are newlyweds going on their honeymoon in Minneapolis? Probably not. Doesn't mean we don't have a lot of visitors who aren't from these parts.

[NickP]

I agree that we should always be striving to make our transit system better, but would people provide specific suggestions on how to make the system better? TCmetro, I would also argue that our bus stops are pretty good. Yes the benches could be farther from the street, but I find the amount of information to be great, at least on the major transit routes. I live in Boston currently and I think the bus system leaves a lot to be desired. When they do have maps, they only have the entire system on them, which can be overwhelming to look at. They rarely have schedules posted, and the only places I have seen schedules of individual routes in at major transit stations, rarely do I see them on the busses like I do in the Twin Cities. In addition, I am amazed how smooth rides are on Metro Transit buses, at least compared to the MBTA lol

[mattaudio]

No branches. That's what would make life better. If there's a good reason to have more service on a major road and then divide that service further out, call it two routes. I'd prefer this is done only where there's 10 min or better frequency on the combined route, thereby eliminating the need for looking at two schedules for those combined segments. I bet we could also get rid of at least half of the branches in the first place.

[talindsay]

I'll second the renumbering to eliminate branches. I totally get the benefit of branching operationally, but it's very confusing.

[MNdible]

I'll second the renumbering to eliminate branches. I totally get the benefit of branching operationally, but it's very confusing.

Nah, that's making it more confusing for the much higher percentage of riders on the trunk line for the few that ride it all of the way out to the branches. If I'm downtown and going to uptown, I just need to know that a 6 will get me there, and I don't need to pay attention to the branches.

At any rate, I think that the increasing power of smart phones and transit apps are quickly going to make transit confusion obsolete. Nobody will need to look at an actual schedule anymore.

[NickP]

I agree with MNdible on this. I think the majority of people don't worry about the branches since they are usually so far out. One exception where I would add a route, however, is the 6 when it goes down to France or Xerxes. I feel like those streets could have separate lines.

[talindsay]

Perhaps the issue here is that many branches here happen pretty close in to the core parts of many routes, meaning that people have to encounter branches where they shouldn't. The RER system in Paris, for example, has a tangled mess of branches that's very hostile to those who don't know the system; but the branches don't happen until quite a ways out of the city, so the vast majority of riders never encounter the branches.

Branches that happen within a line's core ridership area (and certainly anywhere designated as "high frequency") probably ought to be separate line numbers. Branches that happen outside the core ridership area probably offer more benefit than drawback.

The challenge, of course, is deciding what constitutes my hypothetical "core ridership area" within which branches shouldn't happen, and outside which branches are helpful.

[UptownSport]

Hiawatha is so frequent and consistent that really doesn't need a schedule- Most of the time it's either a just left or just arriving category within 7 minutes

Minor improvement question;
There's a bus that drops at Uptown Station late (perhaps other times, too?)- on Hennepin Northbound gate. It arrives as 'Out of Service' and continues downtown empty. (I know this as a driver once told me to hop aboard and more or less let me hitchhike)
I wonder why this bus couldn't switch to a '6' and continue to 1st and 1st, since it would only go blocks farther.

Reason I'm talking about this here, is I also wonder if occurs in other areas, where other lines end away from downtown- Perhaps it could increase frequency and lighten the load on other corridors.

[ECtransplant]

I would guess you're talking about the 12x

[Scott Wood]

Even more fun than branches are schedule differences that aren't notated at all. Try figuring out whether a particular eastbound 21 is going to go all the way to Union Depot, or turn around after the Minnesota St stop, especially on Saturday evenings.

[mulad]

There should really be an extra destination board inside the buses - Metro Transit is good about changing the text for each route variant, but it's hard to remember to read that before getting on.

[web]

35 yrs ago..............."does this bus go to southdale??" 100 times a trip

[twincitizen]

I think we can all agree that at the very least, the branch letters should mean something.

Example: most southbound Route 4 branches are lettered F & K (ignoring the shortline A that stops at 38th Street and uncommon D variant). Route 4 branches at 50th Street, either taking Lyndale or Penn Avenue down to the terminus at 35W & 82nd St. What the **** do F & K stand for? Why not L for Lyndale and P for Penn?
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Back to the subject at hand:

I'm not one of those crazy people that think Nicollet Mall should not have any transit on it (i.e. peds & bikes only). However, if/when we build a streetcar here, I DO think the bus routes should be re-routed to other nearby corridors (Marq2 and Hennepin). It would be completely unacceptable to have the streetcar delayed behind buses on the Nicollet Mall segment. It would defeat all of the arguments in favor of streetcar (level boarding platforms, off-board fare collection, all-door boarding, signal priority, etc).

Anyone know what percentage of total Nicollet Mall boardings & alightings are on the 10 & 18? The other Mall-running routes are 11,17, & 25. Where should those routes go? Marq2? Hennepin?

[trkaiser]

Couldn't agree more - Nicollet Mall should be streetcar, bikes and peds. It would be nice to also be able to still grab a taxi here...

[mulad]

Just looking at how those routes cross the river into downtown, I'd suggest the 11 go to Hennepin and the 17 and 25 go to Marq2. It'd be nice to have some regular-route service on Marquette and 2nd, which are typically dead on evenings and weekends.