Minneapolis & St. Paul Fantasies and Speculations

[nasa35]

This is where a bit of the idea started for me, I just figure it's easier to put less building over the interstate...

http://www.theparkdallas.org/

F'ing Dallas! What AREN'T they doing these days?! The worst part is, for me, that many/most people in the city have NO desire to live in an urban environment -- these are suburbanites, through and through! I say that because anybody who is fleeing their city to pastures notorious for being cheap and tax free is probably looking for space and/or home amenities galore.....and probably NOT looking for urban flats with less square footage. This is just my thinking, not necessarily truth.

The snobbery is getting out of hand, seriously. Some of you are down right hatefull bigots. Tax free??? Eff off budddy, I would bet your weekly allowance I pay more taxes then you.

[min-chi-cbus]

This is where a bit of the idea started for me, I just figure it's easier to put less building over the interstate...

http://www.theparkdallas.org/

F'ing Dallas! What AREN'T they doing these days?! The worst part is, for me, that many/most people in the city have NO desire to live in an urban environment -- these are suburbanites, through and through! I say that because anybody who is fleeing their city to pastures notorious for being cheap and tax free is probably looking for space and/or home amenities galore.....and probably NOT looking for urban flats with less square footage. This is just my thinking, not necessarily truth.

The snobbery is getting out of hand, seriously. Some of you are down right hatefull bigots. Tax free??? Eff off budddy, I would bet your weekly allowance I pay more taxes then you.

Isn't Texas the land of no income tax? Isn't that a HUGE reason why so many people want to live there?

I'm not sure what prompted your temper tantrum but if you feel that you are paying too much in taxes you can always move......again. Just follow the herd, it's hard to miss!

P.S. "than", not "then".

[Lancestar2]

I do like the idea of connecting Oak Grove to 17th. Although I think the Nicollet Bridge is going to get repaved very soon maybe next year? I don't think there is any demand to create a "land bridge" for retail given the entire area as it stands is pretty much vacant.

Although I think there is more demand for a 1st Ave - 3rd Ave parking ramp for the convention center. Which IMO could really help the surronding locations convert there parking lot space into more mix use buildings! Imagine all the parking spaces by Family Dollar GONE! (a few handicap spots and about 6 15min or less parking spots) and replaced with other stores and a nice outdoor plaza/green space! Also the hotel that is spose to occupy the empty lot could also use the parking ramp (valet service) Also 1500 Nicollet (the half block that is for sale) could be developed into a nice 20-30 tower with parking available at the ramp too! Also if they create a nice walking trail between Nicollet ave and 1st then the parking lot on Oak and Spruce could be developed. Finally it would allow a nice parking option for all the stevens square residents as I know its a crowded parking area.

[nasa35]

F'ing Dallas! What AREN'T they doing these days?! The worst part is, for me, that many/most people in the city have NO desire to live in an urban environment -- these are suburbanites, through and through! I say that because anybody who is fleeing their city to pastures notorious for being cheap and tax free is probably looking for space and/or home amenities galore.....and probably NOT looking for urban flats with less square footage. This is just my thinking, not necessarily truth.

The snobbery is getting out of hand, seriously. Some of you are down right hatefull bigots. Tax free??? Eff off budddy, I would bet your weekly allowance I pay more taxes then you.

Isn't Texas the land of no income tax? Isn't that a HUGE reason why so many people want to live there?

I'm not sure what prompted your temper tantrum but if you feel that you are paying too much in taxes you can always move......again. Just follow the herd, it's hard to miss!

P.S. "than", not "then".

Than...excuse me....wow.

I would guess my "temper tantrum" was explained. My error was assuming you were doing your broad swipe at anyone who doesn't choose to live as you....as usual. My apologies.

[min-chi-cbus]

The snobbery is getting out of hand, seriously. Some of you are down right hatefull bigots. Tax free??? Eff off budddy, I would bet your weekly allowance I pay more taxes then you.

Isn't Texas the land of no income tax? Isn't that a HUGE reason why so many people want to live there?

I'm not sure what prompted your temper tantrum but if you feel that you are paying too much in taxes you can always move......again. Just follow the herd, it's hard to miss!

P.S. "than", not "then".

Than...excuse me....wow.

I would guess my "temper tantrum" was explained. My error was assuming you were doing your broad swipe at anyone who doesn't choose to live as you....as usual. My apologies.

Live however you want, just don't expect people to love the fact that they are subsidizing it (in this case, urbanizing a suburban metro area). My whole beef was that Dallas is so HOT right now that it can and DOES get all of the interest it needs privately to achieve what it wants, so why the subsidy? That's all. That's my rant, and I even admitted that it wasn't necessarily true (any of it), but rather just how I felt.

[Nathan]

I do like the idea of connecting Oak Grove to 17th. Although I think the Nicollet Bridge is going to get repaved very soon maybe next year? I don't think there is any demand to create a "land bridge" for retail given the entire area as it stands is pretty much vacant.

The theory of land bridges isn't that there IS currently a lot of retail or any kind of demand for the area. This lack of demand even in places with prime real estate is because the Trench severely disconnects the neighborhoods making the properties less valuable and accessible the closer you get to the freeway. That is why you would build a cap to connect the neighborhoods, create demand for more retail and residential and mixed use. Making a whole new desirable urban neighborhood of sorts.

[mattaudio]

I know it's a little west than the map of the land bridge proposal, but I wonder why there's not a north-south connection between Clifton Place and LaSalle. Spruce Place likely couldn't go through due to the historic property on the south side of Oak Grove. Another option would be along the Willow Place alignment between Oak Grove and Groveland via Clifton. This would cross 94 and provide the opportunity for air rights development above 94. The frontage road portion of Clifton could be replaced by this perpendicular road.

[seanrichardryan]

N-S between clifton place and Lasalle? How would that work, they run roughly parallel. A E-W between Clifton Ave and Lasalle is theoretically possible, it was there historically, except a bridge would be incredibly long and the grade change is around 50 feet.

[mattaudio]

Something like this http://goo.gl/maps/mG8O

[Lancestar2]

I do like the idea of connecting Oak Grove to 17th. Although I think the Nicollet Bridge is going to get repaved very soon maybe next year? I don't think there is any demand to create a "land bridge" for retail given the entire area as it stands is pretty much vacant.

The theory of land bridges isn't that there IS currently a lot of retail or any kind of demand for the area. This lack of demand even in places with prime real estate is because the Trench severely disconnects the neighborhoods making the properties less valuable and accessible the closer you get to the freeway. That is why you would build a cap to connect the neighborhoods, create demand for more retail and residential and mixed use. Making a whole new desirable urban neighborhood of sorts.

I do get your point and it does make sense. Although I think instead of a land bridge lined with retail I think a entire covered plaza from Lasalle ave to 1st (or even Groveland like suggested above) would be much better at bridging the "gap" Also IMO I think resorces would better be put to use to extend the Nicollet Mall to Loring Park and to the Walker and the redesign of the Nicollet Mall. Although I think it would be nice if the remodled Nicollet Ave bridge included some trees on the bridge and flowers along the walking path also maybe some trash cans and even a sitting option like a flower bed with bench boarder. Also maybe after they expand the 94 tunnel and freeway then it may be a option to include some elements of what we all would like


Also according to google measurements the bridge is 300ish feet. I personally would be just happy with some nice walking trails east to west on BOTH sides of the freeway! with good lighting and some nice plants


then again maybe it's because I have a view of this site outside my window and I would HATE to have to look at some ugly buildings lineing the Nicollet road instead of being able to watch the cars wizz past! ...so I may be a bit bias lol

[Andrew_F]

I do like the idea of connecting Oak Grove to 17th. Although I think the Nicollet Bridge is going to get repaved very soon maybe next year? I don't think there is any demand to create a "land bridge" for retail given the entire area as it stands is pretty much vacant.

Although I think there is more demand for a 1st Ave - 3rd Ave parking ramp for the convention center. Which IMO could really help the surronding locations convert there parking lot space into more mix use buildings! Imagine all the parking spaces by Family Dollar GONE! (a few handicap spots and about 6 15min or less parking spots) and replaced with other stores and a nice outdoor plaza/green space! Also the hotel that is spose to occupy the empty lot could also use the parking ramp (valet service) Also 1500 Nicollet (the half block that is for sale) could be developed into a nice 20-30 tower with parking available at the ramp too! Also if they create a nice walking trail between Nicollet ave and 1st then the parking lot on Oak and Spruce could be developed. Finally it would allow a nice parking option for all the stevens square residents as I know its a crowded parking area.

I think the Stevens Square parking crunch would be better solved by a large ramp incorporated in the Abbott Hospital or the "hotel proposal" block. I don't think many people would support a standalone parking structure fronting Nicollet, and I doubt it would even be legal to put one in Stevens proper. Aesthetically something part of the northern half of a redevelopment of the Abbott or meter farm block would be a winner.

[Nathan]

I do like the idea of connecting Oak Grove to 17th. Although I think the Nicollet Bridge is going to get repaved very soon maybe next year? I don't think there is any demand to create a "land bridge" for retail given the entire area as it stands is pretty much vacant.

The theory of land bridges isn't that there IS currently a lot of retail or any kind of demand for the area. This lack of demand even in places with prime real estate is because the Trench severely disconnects the neighborhoods making the properties less valuable and accessible the closer you get to the freeway. That is why you would build a cap to connect the neighborhoods, create demand for more retail and residential and mixed use. Making a whole new desirable urban neighborhood of sorts.

Although I think instead of a land bridge lined with retail I think a entire covered plaza from Lasalle ave to 1st

That is what we are talking about, see the top post on page 7...

[PhilmerPhil]

Inspired by Andy Sturdevant, I checked out the fascinating photo archives at the Central Library yesterday. I found an awesome article from 1969 about the introduction of Nicollet Mall. (Pardon the poor formatting and if it's difficult to read, the online image uploader rotated it for some reason, I recommend downloading it and using your image viewer to read it.)

It's fascinating that the goals and concerns are almost exactly the same as if something similar were proposed today. It's also a good reminder that Nicollet Mall used to be just an Avenue--like Hennepin, 4th St. SE, or Nicollet south of the mall--so it might not be such a crazy idea to close off other streets a la Nicollet Mall after all. At the time there were several people concerned about banning cars from Nicollet, but eventually things worked out, people found other routes, or adjusted their modes of travel. Just something to think about. I know there have been a few instances of suggesting the closing off of streets on this forum and Minnescraper, many of which resulted in responses like "Are you insane? No way that would ever work." I hope this opens some eyes.

[go4guy]

I think it would be a good idea to close down one of the streets that run the opposite way. Maybe 5th St that the light rail runs down. Just have the light rail, and then larger sidewalks. Go from stadium to stadium.

[Nathan]

Ohhh, I like the 5th St. Idea... It's not really a major street in the realm of trying to get to the Interstate during rush hour either is it? It does have a number of parking garages that might be a little frustrated though? Did Nicollet have that challenge?

[ECtransplant]

I really like the idea of closing cars off on 5th. Throw in signal priority for the trains and we're really talking

[PhilmerPhil]

5th Ave isn't really what I had in mind with that post. There really aren't enough pedestrian destinations there to keep it interesting. I had major streets like those in Uptown, Northeast, Dinkytown, or others that already have a significant amount of pedestrian traffic and retail/restaurants. 5th St. might be an easy option, but I was thinking of something that would really have "wow factor." Something politically daring and risky that years after implementation will have almost nothing but positive feedback, like Nicollet Mall, which today we can't imagine going back to its original four lane existence.

[mullen]

how about going to the mall's 1960's intent. it currently sucks thanks to the early 90's renovation.

take all motorized vehicles off the mall. there always gasps and fainting spells when this is brought up but tons of major cities have dedicated pedestrians streets/corridors right smack in their centers. i think we'll be fine with the precious buses on other streets. (i'm a daily bus rider)

imagine a street where people freely stroll up and down, stopping at the numerous bars, restaurants and small shops. that's every european city in a nutshell.

and now...wait for it. the faints and gasps of righteous indignation.

[min-chi-cbus]

how about going to the mall's 1960's intent. it currently sucks thanks to the early 90's renovation.

take all motorized vehicles off the mall. there always gasps and fainting spells when this is brought up but tons of major cities have dedicated pedestrians streets/corridors right smack in their centers. i think we'll be fine with the precious buses on other streets. (i'm a daily bus rider)

imagine a street where people freely stroll up and down, stopping at the numerous bars, restaurants and small shops. that's every european city in a nutshell.

and now...wait for it. the faints and gasps of righteous indignation.

I just woke up from my coma.......now that I'm awake again, I could see something like that working best for an area of downtown that regularly has BOOMING nightlife (esp. Hennipen [sic] or 1st) or daytime traffic. I'm not sure Nicollet make the cut.....yet, but it could BECOME that if the street were cleared. In Austin, 6th Street is closed down only at night for their nightly parade of nearly 100,000 drunks! What about something like that -- a daily/nightly street closing? I just can't imagine downtown traffic not being terribly affected by completely closing ANY street, but I'll leave that to the traffic engineers.

[Nordeastmpls]

How about just reducing the bus traffic on Nicollet to electric buses which are free and only run up and down the mall. Get all the other routes and taxis off the mall. Denver has been doing this on 16th street mall for years and it seems to work great. The electric buses don't have all the exhaust blowing out while people are dining outdoors on the sidewalk, and you can still hop on if you need to get to the other end of the mall and don't want to walk.