Purple Line BRT (Rush Line Corridor)

[Tcmetro]

MT has barely invested in coverage, and in a lot of cases it's actually contracted over the years. 20+ years ago the White Bear Lake area was served with several local and express routes to downtown St. Paul.

[thespeedmccool]

Yep, this should no longer be a color route, but an aBRT route. No question about it. There's barely any guideway left in this guideway project.

When this project was pared back from White Bear Lake, they should have upgraded it to LRT given the shorter length. There's honestly no reason to use the Phalen alignment if it's not a lengthy guideway project. Versus East 7th or any other street northeast of downtown St. Paul, Phalen is the least obvious for transit. It's basically east St. Paul's pre-reconstruction Ayd Mill Road: an entirely auto-oriented, suburban-style parkway built in former railroad right-of-way that was reserved for a freeway that never got built. Even worse, it's lined with light industrial and minimally transit-supportive offices. What a terrible alignment to choose for a bus route. Phalen would have only made sense if this were an LRT which required generous right-of-way and could actually draw people into the trench to use it.

Since it's not an LRT and probably won't ever be, this should obviously be an aBRT line that can be completed five years sooner and at one tenth the cost versus a full BRT line. And frankly, an aBRT running from East 7th to Minnehaha to White Bear or from East 7th to Arcade to Maryland to White Bear would probably have more riders than a BRT running in the Phalen trench. Hell, if this were an aBRT, we could probably fully fund it with the new transit tax and not even have to worry about whether it will meet federal funding guidelines.

I "agree" with Ramsey County planners and politicians that there's no reason they can't have big fancy transit projects like Minneapolis, but they keep planning, like, the worst uses of our limited transit dollars I can think of. Hopefully with Met Council reform this year, we can move transit planning out of the counties entirely, because this is just getting silly.

[at40man]

At this point I would vote for officially "downgrading" this project to aBRT. I'd rather see White Bear Ave retain the ability to do a 4:3 road diet, with strategically-placed queue jumps for buses at congested stoplights. Nothing about this corridor makes sense for being actual guideway BRT over aBRT. This Purple Line nonsense is nothing more than a political vanity project of the Ramsey County board and inertia by project staff. Arterial BRT is more than sufficient level of service for this route.

According to Purple Line CBAC meeting last night, aBRT does not qualify for federal funding, which cancels the whole project. One of the options they are examining south of Larpenteur is allowing for limited use of the bus lane for vehicles making turns and service vehicles such as trash haulers. This would kill two birds with one stone: you get calmer traffic that is desired from a 4:3 conversion, and it would still qualify for federal funding.

The biggest issue is the narrowness of White Bear Avenue, which was stated at 67 feet south of Larpenteur. It will not be getting wider. North of Larpenteur is no issue, but the many driveways and homes on the west side of the street (where I live) present a challenge to having a side-running line here. It sounds like they are leaning toward a center alignment in this portion.

As someone who lives in this area -- and in fact, on White Bear Avenue, it is not a vanity project. It has been seriously studied for decades now. This side of the region needs transit investment, and a true north-south connection. I grew up with my mom taking an infrequent bus from North Oaks & White Bear Lake to downtown St Paul, that definitely could've been more efficient. I do remember that bus being well-used. And I also used to make the journey from Century College to Maplewood Mall and to downtown St Paul for a couple years in the 2000s. It took forevvvvvvver. And I still frequently use the bus on this side of the city to this day. We really get the short end of the stick, and it's tiring to see the eastern metro get left behind for no particularly good reason. This side needs better and can do better.

And White Bear Avenue needs to be less stroady. While I think the Purple Line is best suited for the former Skally Line corridor, I would support elimination of lanes and traffic calming on White Bear Avenue.

It is also worth pointing out that this is still not considered the preferred alignment. It is being studied to see if it can even reach that level. It isn't some sort of foregone conclusion that this is going to become the preferred route. Many many many options are being studied right now to at least get something as good as can be with this challenging set of requirements. But the original alignment is definitely NOT off the table.

If 54 were to be upgraded to aBRT with Purple Line on the original corridor, I could get behind that idea. 54 is often very crowded. But Purple Line itself should not even be considered to be cancelled, and in my opinion the preferred alignment is still the best one. The NRLB does not speak for Maplewood.

[Trademark]

At this point I would vote for officially "downgrading" this project to aBRT. I'd rather see White Bear Ave retain the ability to do a 4:3 road diet, with strategically-placed queue jumps for buses at congested stoplights. Nothing about this corridor makes sense for being actual guideway BRT over aBRT. This Purple Line nonsense is nothing more than a political vanity project of the Ramsey County board and inertia by project staff. Arterial BRT is more than sufficient level of service for this route.

According to Purple Line CBAC meeting last night, aBRT does not qualify for federal funding, which cancels the whole project. One of the options they are examining south of Larpenteur is allowing for limited use of the bus lane for vehicles making turns and service vehicles such as trash haulers. This would kill two birds with one stone: you get calmer traffic that is desired from a 4:3 conversion, and it would still qualify for federal funding.

The biggest issue is the narrowness of White Bear Avenue, which was stated at 67 feet south of Larpenteur. It will not be getting wider. North of Larpenteur is no issue, but the many driveways and homes on the west side of the street (where I live) present a challenge to having a side-running line here. It sounds like they are leaning toward a center alignment in this portion.

As someone who lives in this area -- and in fact, on White Bear Avenue, it is not a vanity project. It has been seriously studied for decades now. This side of the region needs transit investment, and a true north-south connection. I grew up with my mom taking an infrequent bus from North Oaks & White Bear Lake to downtown St Paul, that definitely could've been more efficient. I do remember that bus being well-used. And I also used to make the journey from Century College to Maplewood Mall and to downtown St Paul for a couple years in the 2000s. It took forevvvvvvver. And I still frequently use the bus on this side of the city to this day. We really get the short end of the stick, and it's tiring to see the eastern metro get left behind for no particularly good reason. This side needs better and can do better.

And White Bear Avenue needs to be less stroady. While I think the Purple Line is best suited for the former Skally Line corridor, I would support elimination of lanes and traffic calming on White Bear Avenue.

It is also worth pointing out that this is still not considered the preferred alignment. It is being studied to see if it can even reach that level. It isn't some sort of foregone conclusion that this is going to become the preferred route. Many many many options are being studied right now to at least get something as good as can be with this challenging set of requirements. But the original alignment is definitely NOT off the table.

If 54 were to be upgraded to aBRT with Purple Line on the original corridor, I could get behind that idea. 54 is often very crowded. But Purple Line itself should not even be considered to be cancelled, and in my opinion the preferred alignment is still the best one. The NRLB does not speak for Maplewood.

They shouldn't have eliminated a median bi-directional single bus lane on this alignment. It works in Indianapolis' Red Line by allowing buses to pass at stations, and it would only have to be implemented for a mile between Maryland and Larpenteur. Because it's bi-directional, cars don't go in the bus lane unlike side running ones which get filled up at the first traffic jam. Also, right turns slow down buses especially if there are no right turns allowed on red.

We should also be talking about adding bus lanes on Jackson street as part of the reconstruction that was funded with the St Paul Sales Tax.

[thespeedmccool]

aBRT wouldn't need federal funding because it would be 1/5 the cost.

This should be aBRT. The East Side deserves transit investment; let's build three aBRT lines to east St. Paul for the price of one Purple Line.

[at40man]

They shouldn't have eliminated a median bi-directional single bus lane on this alignment. It works in Indianapolis' Red Line by allowing buses to pass at stations, and it would only have to be implemented for a mile between Maryland and Larpenteur. Because it's bi-directional, cars don't go in the bus lane unlike side running ones which get filled up at the first traffic jam. Also, right turns slow down buses especially if there are no right turns allowed on red.

Bi-Directional single bus lanes were examined and ultimately rejected for the reason that it would create a complex signaling system and that it only works well in short stretches, but operations become challenging for long corridors.

When I traveled to San Diego with Gold Line Partners, one of the biggest regrets/mistakes they feel they made on their new BRT line is a short segment where it goes bi-directional, as it greatly constrains their operations due to the bottleneck it can create, especially as frequency increases.

Looking at old maps, back in the streetcar era, there was a line that ran a few short blocks away in the Furness Parkway and then down Hazel. Not a chance in hell of getting that back, unfortunately.

I think there are no truly "ideal" solutions with the WBA alignment due to the constrictions south of Larpenteur. And I think that this alignment also distracts from thinking regionally, as was the original intent of running it up a former rail corridor.

[Trademark]

They shouldn't have eliminated a median bi-directional single bus lane on this alignment. It works in Indianapolis' Red Line by allowing buses to pass at stations, and it would only have to be implemented for a mile between Maryland and Larpenteur. Because it's bi-directional, cars don't go in the bus lane unlike side running ones which get filled up at the first traffic jam. Also, right turns slow down buses especially if there are no right turns allowed on red.

Bi-Directional single bus lanes were examined and ultimately rejected for the reason that it would create a complex signaling system and that it only works well in short stretches, but operations become challenging for long corridors.

When I traveled to San Diego with Gold Line Partners, one of the biggest regrets/mistakes they feel they made on their new BRT line is a short segment where it goes bi-directional, as it greatly constrains their operations due to the bottleneck it can create, especially as frequency increases.

Looking at old maps, back in the streetcar era, there was a line that ran a few short blocks away in the Furness Parkway and then down Hazel. Not a chance in hell of getting that back, unfortunately.

I think there are no truly "ideal" solutions with the WBA alignment due to the constrictions south of Larpenteur. And I think that this alignment also distracts from thinking regionally, as was the original intent of running it up a former rail corridor.

I agree that the San Diego bi-directional bus bridge over Highway 125 is not a model we should follow. Since there is only one lane on the bridge when it crosses the freeway, it must have a very strict and complex signaling system because if two buses are heading in the same direction, there's no place for a bus to bail out of the lane.

What I propose is something similar to Indy's Red Line BRT which uses a bi-directional lane for 3 miles on College Ave from 38th to 62nd street. Take a look at it on Google Maps! Because of the ability for a bus to leave the dedicated lane if the signals fail and enter the general traffic lane, there doesn't need to be as strict adherence to signaling leading to less delays. They still use signals and signal priority to allow the buses to pass each other during dwell times at stations. And It fits within a 66 foot right of way including sidewalks and stations, while White Bear Avenue gets as skinny as 67 feet.

If they can run this system without delays for 3 miles including when it snows, I think we can handle it for 1 mile on White Bear Ave (Maryland doesn't make as much sense for it as the H Line would also run on that street at 10 minute frequency and so I support side running bus lanes until the bus approaches where it would turn). I have a meeting set up with someone at IndyGo to discuss it further. I'm planning on asking, what are the pros and cons are of it? What does it require to operate efficiently? Would they implement it again? Would they prefer a dedicated one lane in the middle versus semi-exclusive side running if they had the choice? and What's the maximum headways that they can run on it given 1/2 mile station spacing? It's one thing to see it on Google Maps. It's another thing to talk with people who operate it, just like you learned in your visit to San Diego.

If you have any questions that you'd like me to ask, please share! If St Paul wins out and it becomes aBRT so be it, but this route still has a lot of potential and I'm not ready to give up dedicated lanes, and an opportunity to bring transit priority to White Bear Avenue unless we absolutely have to. I'm not all in on bi-directional, I'm just exploring one idea that might be a potential solution, and I want to find out if it's workable here. I think it may have been eliminated too quickly based on the experience in San Diego.

Side note and off topic about Hazel, but I'd love to see it become a really good protected bike connection from the Gold Line to the Gateway Trail. There's even room for a one block new bike path to connect Beebe Rd and 7th street N between Holloway and Cowern. And on the south end of the corridor, an underpass under 94 would've made a lot of sense to connect the station to Burns/Suburban as it's one of the few opportunity zones in Ward 7. Adding that connection to the Gold Line would allow it to become a better Transit Oriented Development by not forcing people to have to walk 3/4 miles around White Bear or Ruth to access Hazel station mitigating the barrier that is I-94.

[Tcmetro]

Some Purple Line updates from the meeting on Wednesday.

• The Larpenteur/White Bear station is moving to Idaho/White Bear.
• On the north end, one option is to end at Maplewood Mall Transit Center, the other option is to extend to Hazelwood Ave & County Road D with a stop at St. Johns Hospital. The extended route would not pull into the transit center and would instead stop on the street.

https://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites ... 10_ada.pdf

[COLSLAW5]

Why is this still being billed at a colored metro line. This seems more in line with our lettered BRT. It hardly looks like its getting dedicated lanes where it matters most.

[Bakken2016]

Why is this still being billed at a colored metro line. This seems more in line with our lettered BRT. It hardly looks like its getting dedicated lanes where it matters most.

Technically Bruce Vento Trail isn't off the table yet, but I just looked over the 15% design plans from 2020, there is still dedicated guideway infrastructure between Arcade and Maryland that would not usually go along with an aBRT project. So in my opinion I think it's a combination of that and funding, they are expecting to apply for CIG.

[Trademark]

Why is this still being billed at a colored metro line. This seems more in line with our lettered BRT. It hardly looks like its getting dedicated lanes where it matters most.

It's still gonna have between 60-70% dedicated lanes, and it will be getting street reconstructions for added safety on White Bear and Maryland. If it was a letter line those reconstructions would be changed to mill and overlays. The route wouldn't stop at Hmong Village, wouldn't hit Mt. Airy, or the job center near Phalen and Cayuga. And would likely not have any bus lanes on Maryland or White Bear in St Paul.

Also Century College is still on the table. It wouldn't qualify for Federal Funding if it used Bruce Vento, but hopefully White Bear Ave raises scores enough over Bruce Vento so it can extend there. Connecting Community Colleges with Rapid Transit is important.

We still need to serve Vadnais Heights but that can be done with a northern extension of the 64. We don't need the 64 and the Purple Line both going from Downtown St Paul. Anyone on Payne who wants to go to Maplewood can either walk to the Purple or the H which would be one transfer from the Purple.

[Vagueperson]

What changes do you envision for the #64 and #54?

[Mdcastle]

So, how many dedicated lanes do the Red and Orange Line have?

[Bakken2016]

So, how many dedicated lanes do the Red and Orange Line have?

Very Little.

Red: Uses the Highway 77 shoulder to bypass traffic if needed.

Orange: The tunnel under 494, MN-Pass Lane(but it shares that with carpool traffic), Marq2

So honestly Purple Line will have more dedicated lanes, so in my opinion it still deserves its color name.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mamundsen]

I live near this line. I would rather see it reduced to aBRT project and priced at 25%. If it’s Purple or aBRT, it will be slow, which will hurt ridership. A reduction would open funds for additional projects, and my vote would be a more useful Hwy 36 project.

[Bakken2016]

I live near this line. I would rather see it reduced to aBRT project and priced at 25%. If it’s Purple or aBRT, it will be slow, which will hurt ridership. A reduction would open funds for additional projects, and my vote would be a more useful Hwy 36 project.

What are you proposing along Hwy 36? Online station BRT?

[Mdcastle]

If we were going to build Hwy 36 BRT it might have been nice to make plans before we built a dozen new bridges along it in the past decade or so.

[EOst]

Not to mention that the major Highway 36 interchanges are located in the most wind-swept suburban hellscapes imaginable. Imagine a vertical transfer from a 36 BRT to the A Line in the middle of a cloverleaf. Who's going to take an infrequent bus 20 minutes into the suburbs and wait next to a freeway just to get a mildly faster ride into downtown Minneapolis vs. the H Line on Como-Maryland?

[daveybabymsp]

I agree it would be hard to pivot to highway 36 brt from purple line with a quick turnaround but I do think highway 36 is one of the most promising highway brt options if we are going to keep building highway BRT. It would capture a lot of park and ride customers traveling to Minneapolis from the north and east. The transfer to/from the A line would not happen in the cloverleaf, the line would have to stop at the Rosedale transit center which would add a few minutes of travel time but would be worth it. It could also stop at rice and have a station transferring to and from the G line. Anyone who lived between Roselawn and the little Canada transit center would take 36 brt over the h line. Further east it could cross paths with a future purple line/white bear Ave ABRT, as well as a stop in/near Main Street north Saint Paul and the gateway trail. Still not better than a lot of more complicated non-highway rapid transit lines, but I think if the region keeps pushing for more highway transit it is one of the lowest hanging fruit options.

[Trademark]

Highway 36 and Purple Line BRT does not have to be mutually exclusive largely because they serve two different markets. 36 serves Minneapolis and Purple serves St Paul. White Bear needs reconstruction to be safer, and slowing down the route by removing bus lanes isn't the best option for the corridor. Just because it's had to pivot doesn't mean it's not a good route. If anything, I think it's better for going on White Bear then Bruce Vento.