Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
-
- IDS Center
- Posts: 4674
- Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
- Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Broken tail lights enforcement is unproven as a safety scheme. Broken tail lights is not even in the same level of violation as speeding or red light running. At. All.
I'm very uncomfortable with extremely low level violations like this used as a pretext for more. This is very much at the core of what is making this bubble into rage, the tail lights are used to harass innocent people who live in neighborhoods with higher crime rates. Speeding, running lights, is actually dangerous... tail lights out is so far down the danger scale I can't see them as even the same category.
I'm very uncomfortable with extremely low level violations like this used as a pretext for more. This is very much at the core of what is making this bubble into rage, the tail lights are used to harass innocent people who live in neighborhoods with higher crime rates. Speeding, running lights, is actually dangerous... tail lights out is so far down the danger scale I can't see them as even the same category.
-
- IDS Center
- Posts: 4674
- Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
- Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was
Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Washington Post blogger, Ridley Balko, on how to count justified/unjustified, necessary/unnecessary police shootings.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... egitimate/
Notes that even with video the shooting of Philando will likely be counted as justified because of the presence of the gun. Lots of other troubling examples that were (or could be) counted as justified because only the officer's report itself is used to determine it... even when it's falsified.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... egitimate/
Notes that even with video the shooting of Philando will likely be counted as justified because of the presence of the gun. Lots of other troubling examples that were (or could be) counted as justified because only the officer's report itself is used to determine it... even when it's falsified.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Almost none. There are numbers available on this.So how many cops get murked by people they pull over for busted taillights
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
You mean "suspicious." Not objectively, reasonably suspicious, just whoever an individual officer subjectively believes is suspicious. Which is disproportionately people of color, especially black.They are a way to get suspicious individuals
No we can't. Of course it does not. The added danger because of pulled over vehicle alone may be enough to tip the scales toward no.Whether or not that saves lives is another matter we can debate.
And then there's the sometimes explicit acknowledgment that these types of stops are revenue-generating.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Don't be ridiculous. It's not at all possible for police to catch criminals only by catching them in the act. There are thousands of cases where somebody was pulled over for something minor but the proverbial body in the trunk was found during the stop. Getting those people behind bars is saving lives in my book. Does that mean we should be disproportionately pulling over blacks? Of course not, whites commit crimes too. But if you're trying to say the relatively scarce sample of traffic stops that end up this way somehow kills more people than the criminals they take off the streets, I don't think the numbers will be in your favor.
-
- IDS Center
- Posts: 4674
- Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
- Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
You're not aware of the number of innocents being hit up in the sweep because you're not in those groups most looked at, but you are saying it's worth it for all of them to get rounded up and shaken down.
Seeing possibly over-the-top shakedown of low status people (poor and/or minority) bothers me a lot.
Seeing possibly over-the-top shakedown of low status people (poor and/or minority) bothers me a lot.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
No, I'm not saying that at all.
I am saying I think police should have the ability to pull over suspicious individuals due to the reasons I said above, but I don't agree with many cops' current definition of suspicious because it is heavily slanted against black males.Does that mean we should be disproportionately pulling over blacks? Of course not, whites commit crimes too.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
I'm pretty sure we'd catch a lot of crimes if police randomly raided houses with a minor code violations, too. Still not right.There are thousands of cases where somebody was pulled over for something minor but the proverbial body in the trunk was found during the stop. Getting those people behind bars is saving lives in my book.
-
- IDS Center
- Posts: 4674
- Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
- Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
What's interesting is I thought I read that a city tried to get police escort of meter readers and in order to get a look at evidence inside homes on the pretext of safety of the readers. Courts shut that down.
If we want equipment malfunctions on cars to be enforced, we should have a special branch like we have just for parking enforcement, maybe we extend parking cops to car equipment failures? It's all they do, we don't have parking cops checking parking violations for drug possession or outstanding warrants.
If we want equipment malfunctions on cars to be enforced, we should have a special branch like we have just for parking enforcement, maybe we extend parking cops to car equipment failures? It's all they do, we don't have parking cops checking parking violations for drug possession or outstanding warrants.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Almost no one is caught in the act. Nonetheless, people are actually prosecuted for crimes.Don't be ridiculous. It's not at all possible for police to catch criminals only by catching them in the act.
For some reason, we've decided that driving is giving the state permission to randomly check on you. I suspect there's some history there - slave patrols - that underpins that attitude that we generally don't think about.
That's absurd. People are often arrested during traffic stops for something other than what they were stopped for. The vast majority of times, it's for an outstanding warrant, typically resulting from a failure to appear or pay a fine. No lives are saved by arresting someone too poor or otherwise incapable of navigating the court system.Getting those people behind bars is saving lives in my book.
The bulk of the rest of those arrested at pretextual traffic stops have to be for simple drug possession. No lives are saved by perpetuating our failed drug policy. Heck, they're probably endangered.
The proverbial body in the trunk has to be statistically insignificant. Like, I'm sure it's happened, but it has to be exceedingly rare. Let's stipulate that it's happened 10 times in American history (I'd actually be surprised if it's that many). Let's even stipulate that each of the people arrested with a body in the trunk would have killed again. How many fatal crashes have involved vehicles stopped at a traffic stop? Gotta be more, right?
Again, "criminals."But if you're trying to say the relatively scarce sample of traffic stops that end up this way somehow kills more people than the criminals they take off the streets, I don't think the numbers will be in your favor.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
I don't think you can really make this distinction. It's pretty easy to pretextually stop someone for going 3 over the speed limit, too. An inherent tension here is that zealous enforcement of relatively minor traffic violations might be useful in some ways but also provides potential avenues for abuse and harassment. The same goes for all sorts of minor quality-of-life violations off the road as well. We can recognize the harms of current practices while also understanding here's not a single "correct" level of policing that will be satisfactory in every situation.Broken tail lights enforcement is unproven as a safety scheme. Broken tail lights is not even in the same level of violation as speeding or red light running. At. All.
I'm very uncomfortable with extremely low level violations like this used as a pretext for more. This is very much at the core of what is making this bubble into rage, the tail lights are used to harass innocent people who live in neighborhoods with higher crime rates. Speeding, running lights, is actually dangerous... tail lights out is so far down the danger scale I can't see them as even the same category.
With that said, pretextual stops of any sort make me pretty uncomfortable.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
I know the situations aren't perfectly analogous, but our soldiers in active war zones have a higher burden to meet before using force against [non American citizens] than our police forces have for using force against American civilians here at home. While our police forces aren't quite as well armed as our military (thought that's been changing), our civilians aren't anywhere near as well armed as insurgents overseas.
-
- IDS Center
- Posts: 4674
- Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
- Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
"'What Mr. Castile symbolizes for a lot of us working in public defense is that driving offenses are typically just crimes of poverty,' says Erik Sandvick, a public defender in Ramsey County, which includes St. Paul and its suburbs."
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... t=20160715
The cycle of paying fine after fine after fine for the "net widening" is truly perverse and cruel.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... t=20160715
The cycle of paying fine after fine after fine for the "net widening" is truly perverse and cruel.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Bob Kroll is no longer allowed to wear his uniform while being an embarrassment to the city.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]
[email protected]
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Probably because when you spot an illegally parked car you have no idea who actually drove it there or when they might be coming back. You can write an infraction to a vehicle, but you can't run a warrant check on an empty seat.What's interesting is I thought I read that a city tried to get police escort of meter readers and in order to get a look at evidence inside homes on the pretext of safety of the readers. Courts shut that down.
If we want equipment malfunctions on cars to be enforced, we should have a special branch like we have just for parking enforcement, maybe we extend parking cops to car equipment failures? It's all they do, we don't have parking cops checking parking violations for drug possession or outstanding warrants.
-
- IDS Center
- Posts: 4674
- Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
- Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
On the widespread practice of "Investigatory vehicle stop",
A pretty excellent breakdown on how an investigatory stop differs from a normal one.
http://washingtonmonthly.com/2016/07/21 ... nY.twitterThis practice is the investigatory vehicle stop, the vehicular equivalent of the stop-and-frisk. And like stop-and-frisk, this practice overwhelmingly targets blacks and Latinos and minority communities.
A pretty excellent breakdown on how an investigatory stop differs from a normal one.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Here's a good opinion piece which reminded me about sliding-scale fines based on income, which would be a good way to reduce the incentive for police to target poor communities:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... or-wealthy
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... or-wealthy
Mike Hicks
https://hizeph400.blogspot.com/
https://hizeph400.blogspot.com/
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
Traffic fines indexed to income sounds like a good idea to me. Someone making $200,000 a year probably doesn't care how many tickets they get until it starts to affect their driving privilege.
Re: Black Lives Matter, The Police, etc.
St Paul used to do this with their rental property inspections. In the 90s I lived in a building that got inspected every year, the cops always came along. The pretext was that inspectors were being harassed in high crime areas and needed police protection. In theory the landlord was supposed to notify you of the upcoming inspection but mine never did.What's interesting is I thought I read that a city tried to get police escort of meter readers and in order to get a look at evidence inside homes on the pretext of safety of the readers. Courts shut that down.
If we want equipment malfunctions on cars to be enforced, we should have a special branch like we have just for parking enforcement, maybe we extend parking cops to car equipment failures? It's all they do, we don't have parking cops checking parking violations for drug possession or outstanding warrants.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests