Green Line / Central Corridor construction thread (archive)

[Tcmetro]

The 94 will be optimized to run on 6th/7th in Minneapolis and 5th/6th in Saint Paul. Combined with the elimination of the Capitol and Snelling stops, a 94 run should take 20-25 minutes at the most in good traffic conditions. Personally, I would choose the 94 over the light rail if I had to go between the downtowns. The only problem is the low frequency. In my opinion it should be kept at 15 or 20 minute frequencies for better connections (as a lot of connecting routes run every 10-30 minutes.)

[UptownSport]

off current topic.....is it just me or is the line just so messy looking? the center sections on university. maybe because it fronts all of that bland, expansive suburban style retail, running down the center of the street. it just has the feel of too much going on in a condensed space. too many stations imo. the snelling intersection is a mess. it feels like forced infrastructure. design wise it's a much more attractive project as it runs through u of mn campus and dt st paul.

subways are just so superior in all areas but sadly we aren't a dense or large enough metro to justify the expense.

I agree- They just put a massive 'thing' down University!
I'm really hoping for great things out of it to make up for this.

And, I do think subway would be justified into high density areas- Uptown for instance. There's just too much going on on Henn/Lyndale and taking some buses, ped, motorists, bikes off road would make it quicker and safer for those that have to bike/drive/walk it.

[Viktor Vaughn]

I think we are plenty dense enough to build a subway from the West Lake green line station to Lake & Hennepin, along Hennepin to downtown, across the Mississippi with a stop at University, and east on University with a stop in Dinkytown and terminus at Stadium Village green line stop. This subway line would connect the densest areas of the city and complement the LRT network well.

[twincitizen]

I agree completely. The best part is that much of that wouldn't actually have to be underground. West Lake to Hennepin would be in the trench, and you could cut and cover one of the residential streets (like Dupont or Bryant) rather than expensive deep bore or f***ing up Hennepin or Lyndale.

THIS is what Minneapolis should be pushing for, rather than stupid slow streetcars. Let Metro Transit rollout the arterial BRT network and advocate for a grade-separated, truly rapid connection between the densest parts of the metro area.

[Suburban Outcast]

I agree completely. The best part is that much of that wouldn't actually have to be underground. West Lake to Hennepin would be in the trench, and you could cut and cover one of the residential streets (like Dupont or Bryant) rather than expensive deep bore or f***ing up Hennepin or Lyndale.

THIS is what Minneapolis should be pushing for, rather than stupid slow streetcars. Let Metro Transit rollout the arterial BRT network and advocate for a grade-separated, truly rapid connection between the densest parts of the metro area.

Given that most of the census tracts in that area have over 10,000 psm, I would love to see this happen. If only if the downtown portion of the Blue/Green Line LRT was underground like Pittsburgh's LRT system does to some stations like this:
A medium-capacity/light metro rail line (like Vancouver's SkyTrain) throughout the densest inner-city neighborhoods of Minneapolis would be cool to see, even if it was just a Uptown-Downtown-Northeast Line via Hennepin or a parallel street.

[UptownSport]

Wow!

[UptownSport]

I think streetcar would be great down Nicollet- it would match eat street character perfectly, and be sufficient for rest of line-

I think monorail would be far better in Uptown than LRT/BRT/Trolley/Horse- as terra firma is at such a premium-
I've blabbed about it's virtues here, of course .... viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1054

HOWEVER, putting the train (bus, horse) underground would be ideal, given will to invest

/digression


I'm seeing more caternary poles laying, ready to be installed. There's some different ones by West bank- Wondering if they are to be bolted horizontal to existing, installed poles on 35W flyover or Washington bridge?

And people are excited about this!!!!!!

[sanchopanza]

This is much better:

[Suburban Outcast]

This is much better:

I like the Terminal 1/Lindbergh Station (it's my favorite station on the Blue Line), but if they actually went underground (albeit extremely unlikely) in the Downtown Minneapolis corridor I would be fine with either choice. There would probably be some sort of station art to make the downtown stations look different from one another of course. The current at-grade layout with both the Green and Blue Line trains will look good with more trains going the Green Line is ready for service, though I wonder how it will affect traffic. They could have avoided having train traffic signals for street intersections by going underground, but I guess $400,000 for an upgrade for signals was still a lot cheaper than an extra $100 or so million by going underground.

[UptownSport]

I believe Downtown's have a sophisticated strata of tunnels; heat, electric, H20, sanitation, storm- perhaps even old delivery tunnels and deep product cellars. I think this would add lots and lots an lots to complexity/cost if it were even possible without going very deep. Under tall buildings there's pile- next to untunnelable.

I don't know what Uptown (or NE, North, University ave) have underground- ASSUME lots less.

Note that elevating rail (monorail inc'l) would also avoid traffic interruptions

[jet777]

From a frequent LRT rider's perspective, one of the biggest reasons for tunneling would be to give people an actual time advantage to ride by giving them a traffic priority. The fact that our light rail stops at every downtown intersection and waits for traffic makes it no better than a bus in these areas. Most days I can walk from warehouse station to target field faster than the rail makes it. On the outside this is incredibly dumb (especially when trying to explain to out-of-towners from cities with efficient transportation systems) but it also seems like triggering the stoplights is an easy and inexpensive fix that's never been implemented, why?

[mattaudio]

All I know is that if/when we decide to tunnel E-W across DT, I hope they spend just a little extra cash and built it to be double decked a la Market Street. This would allow future commuter/regional trains to interline between Mpls and St. Paul without reversing, and it would allow for long distance trains to through-route both SPUD and MMM between the southeast and northwest.

[MNdible]

just a little extra cash

Just pocket change, really.

[mamundsen]

Does anyone know about any Park & Ride lots planned for the Green Line? I am looking for information and can't find any. I'm picturing a future where all the business parking lots in the Midway put up signs with "NO LRT PARKING!"

[VAStationDude]

There are zero park and rides on the first phase (central) of the green line.

[mamundsen]

There are zero park and rides on the first phase (central) of the green line.

Ok. That's what I thought... So as someone who will live 2.5 miles north of the line, what is my best option for sporadic use? I'm guessing I'll have to figure out how bus route 65 works.

[spearson]

I believe Downtown's have a sophisticated strata of tunnels; heat, electric, H20, sanitation, storm- perhaps even old delivery tunnels and deep product cellars. I think this would add lots and lots an lots to complexity/cost if it were even possible without going very deep. Under tall buildings there's pile- next to untunnelable.

I don't know what Uptown (or NE, North, University ave) have underground- ASSUME lots less.

Note that elevating rail (monorail inc'l) would also avoid traffic interruptions

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they have a huge drainage/water/sewage systems underground and even as far down as the natural sandstone caves and tunnels. If you read this story, it will give you an idea of the mess that is downtown's underground labyrinth. Not to mention that there are plenty of Urban Exploration sites that show the exploration of the drainage system among other underground things. There is a lot of infrastructure that would have to be re-routed and this is why I think we'll never see grade separated rail in the downtown area.

[MSPtoMKE]

Ok. That's what I thought... So as someone who will live 2.5 miles north of the line, what is my best option for sporadic use? I'm guessing I'll have to figure out how bus route 65 works.

Yep, bus, walk or being dropped off are the main options, but in such an urban area a park and ride would not be appropriate. Route 65 has pretty abysmal service right now, but it is set to be improved considerably next year when the Green Line opens. It is supposed to run every 20 minutes for much of every day, instead of every 30-60 minutes now.

[Andrew_F]

I believe Downtown's have a sophisticated strata of tunnels; heat, electric, H20, sanitation, storm- perhaps even old delivery tunnels and deep product cellars. I think this would add lots and lots an lots to complexity/cost if it were even possible without going very deep. Under tall buildings there's pile- next to untunnelable.

I don't know what Uptown (or NE, North, University ave) have underground- ASSUME lots less.

Note that elevating rail (monorail inc'l) would also avoid traffic interruptions

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they have a huge drainage/water/sewage systems underground and even as far down as the natural sandstone caves and tunnels. If you read this story, it will give you an idea of the mess that is downtown's underground labyrinth. Not to mention that there are plenty of Urban Exploration sites that show the exploration of the drainage system among other underground things. There is a lot of infrastructure that would have to be re-routed and this is why I think we'll never see grade separated rail in the downtown area.

While the Twin Cities has by far the most extensive underground utility networks of any american city of comparable size, thanks to geological flukes, downtown Minneapolis doesn't have too much compared to other neighborhoods. If we're talking cut-and-cover it's basically the same as any other dense place-- electrical and fiber conduit, cut-and-cover chilled/heated water tunnels, and buried water mains and minor sewers and drains. If we're doing deep-bore, there's the big interceptor under Washington, and then deep bore drains under pretty much everything. Plus the two natural caves, but historically both MPLS and STP haven't cared about preservation of caves and have long been in the cave destruction business.

Also, unlike Greg Brick's scholarly titles would have you believe, he has a history of being not so truthful in his writing. I would never cite him as a source.

[Suburban Outcast]

While the Twin Cities has by far the most extensive underground utility networks of any american city of comparable size, thanks to geological flukes, downtown Minneapolis doesn't have too much compared to other neighborhoods. If we're talking cut-and-cover it's basically the same as any other dense place-- electrical and fiber conduit, cut-and-cover chilled/heated water tunnels, and buried water mains and minor sewers and drains. If we're doing deep-bore, there's the big interceptor under Washington, and then deep bore drains under pretty much everything. Plus the two natural caves, but historically both MPLS and STP haven't cared about preservation of caves and have long been in the cave destruction business.

It's too bad it's too expensive though. Imagine that the Interchange is where the current Nicollet Mall station is and was connected to a subway/underground LRT under Nicollet Mall (a Uptown-DT-Northeast Line), which could take the buses off the mall and instead of having the city's central station be in the North Loop, have it in the Downtown Core so it could be the nexus of the LRT system.