Northern Lights Express

[Silophant]

Not in the US, but the Renfe Seville-Malaga service I was on in Spain changed directions at Cordoba station.

[twincitizen]

I know of some Amtrak routes that make use of a wye to reverse into stations that are on dead-end tracks, but that usually happens in pretty close proximity to the station. And in both cases I'm aware of, this is more or less in the middle of the route and is done to serve a major metro's union station. Denver and Tampa Union Stations are the two I'm aware of.

Could Great River trains from Duluth use a wye to back into Target Field Station, so it would only be driving backwards for a relatively short span?

[BigIdeasGuy]

Looks like they got the full $195m talked about on the last page.

https://twitter.com/xanderosier/status/ ... 35456?s=20

I would also put the additional money to faster tracks & trains as always seems to be hard/most expensive thing to improve in the future.

[Tom H.]

So, FRA matches projects like NLX at an 80-20 rate, meaning NLX would be potentially eligible for up to $780M in federal funds in addition the $195M in state funding - is that right? Can they just expand the project scope by that much and get the automatic federal match?

It would be nice to understand the final project scope and cost estimates, and hopefully the extra $$$ goes to lowering that travel time closer to (or under) 2 hours.

[Silophant]

This MPR story implies that most of that extra funding will go towards buying the trainsets, which were apparently not included in the previous estimates.

[Trademark]

This MPR story implies that most of that extra funding will go towards buying the trainsets, which were apparently not included in the previous estimates.

Apparently they were planning on renting them

[Korh]

so venture coaches and chargers instead of then used amfleets 2 and or genesis then?
What was the proposed consist gonna be again, I think I remember hearing it something like 3-4 coaches with one train and one cab car.

[Silophant]

I know the platforms are going to be 500' long, which is about right for six coaches (counting the cab car), assuming that the locomotive sticks out from the end of the platform. Probably the same consist as the Great River, whenever they get that started.

[Oreos&Milk]

What is the expected service, like hourly or once every 2 hours during the daytime? It can’t be as infrequent as the Northstar line with only just a few trips a day right? What are the projected ridership is it accurate or unrealistic? Just wondering if anyone here has fact based opinion as to if this is going to be another flop or an actual successful commuter line.

[thespeedmccool]

Maybe I just don't know what trains cost, but if the project budget grew by ~$100 million and the federal match is 80-20, then the total project cost grew ~$500 million?

That seems like it's more than trainsets to me. Maybe there's other bonuses in there or something.

[daveybabymsp]

What is the expected service, like hourly or once every 2 hours during the daytime? It can’t be as infrequent as the Northstar line with only just a few trips a day right? What are the projected ridership is it accurate or unrealistic? Just wondering if anyone here has fact based opinion as to if this is going to be another flop or an actual successful commuter line.

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/nlx/about.html

4 round trips per day. Projected ridership is 700,000-750,000 first year of operations, 1 million after 20 years. That’s an average of about 2,000 per day. I don’t think anyone on this forum can truly tell you how accurate those projections are. We will have to wait and see.

NLX is a regional rail line, not a commuter line. I’m sure some people will use it for commuting, but the purpose is broader than that. It will also be used by people visiting Duluth and the Twin Cities, students who have family in the twin cities and go to college in Duluth (and vice versa), people in greater MN flying out of MSP, etc.

[Silophant]

For comparison, 4 round trips a day is also the service frequency of the Chicago-St. Louis Lincoln Service and the Seattle-Portland section of the Cascades, which are successful at that frequency. The only Amtrak route outside of the Northeast and California that has more than four round trips per day is the Hiawatha.

[Trademark]

Maybe I just don't know what trains cost, but if the project budget grew by ~$100 million and the federal match is 80-20, then the total project cost grew ~$500 million?

That seems like it's more than trainsets to me. Maybe there's other bonuses in there or something.

The federal match was 80-20 on the $100 million. We have no idea if the federal match will increase just because we added more to the project. I'm almost positive that we didn't just unlock $400 million more by adding another $100 million on to the project.

[mattaudio]

At one point, NLX was going to be a unique trainset to operate at higher speeds.
Now, if speeds are only 90 MPH max, is it assumed these will run with Venture/Charger trainsets in the Midwest pool?

IMO all regional rail should stop in Minneapolis *and* St. Paul even if that means a back-up between Mpls Jct and Target Field Station. Empire Builder excepted. Having regional rail split between two terminii is ridiculous.

[Tom H.]

Assuming the extra dollars go to purchasing trainsets, in lieu of renting, does that effectively reduce the ongoing operating costs? I'm hoping they can leverage that into either lower fares, or banking an operational profit margin to pay for future (speed) improvements.

[StandishGuy]

Hooray! I love this project and am so excited that it will move forward.

Question: Does anyone know who is funding the portion of the track upgrades and new station in Superior, WI? It seems odd that MN would provide funds for that part of the project. However, all the articles I read about WI passenger rail do not mention this project.

[Silophant]

At one point, NLX was going to be a unique trainset to operate at higher speeds.
Now, if speeds are only 90 MPH max, is it assumed these will run with Venture/Charger trainsets in the Midwest pool?

I wonder if the unique trainset was based on old equipment assumptions? Amtrak is operating Venture trainsets at 110mph in Michigan, and Brightline is doing 125mph in Florida, so the equipment shouldn't be a problem even if this was upgraded to 110mph in sections.

Question: Does anyone know who is funding the portion of the track upgrades and new station in Superior, WI? It seems odd that MN would provide funds for that part of the project. However, all the articles I read about WI passenger rail do not mention this project.

I also haven't seen anything about anyone but MnDOT funding this project. I guess it maybe makes sense for Minnesota to fund the track upgrades in WI necessary to get to Duluth, but, agreed, it's bizarre that we should pay for the Superior station.

[Trademark]

Assuming the extra dollars go to purchasing trainsets, in lieu of renting, does that effectively reduce the ongoing operating costs? I'm hoping they can leverage that into either lower fares, or banking an operational profit margin to pay for future (speed) improvements.

Lower fares are needed. With $35 tickets which is what I've been hearing a family of 4 would be paying around $280 for a round trip. Ticket's shouldn't be more than $20

[Korh]

Assuming the extra dollars go to purchasing trainsets, in lieu of renting, does that effectively reduce the ongoing operating costs? I'm hoping they can leverage that into either lower fares, or banking an operational profit margin to pay for future (speed) improvements.

Lower fares are needed. With $35 tickets which is what I've been hearing a family of 4 would be paying around $280 for a round trip. Ticket's shouldn't be more than $20

I know someone is gonna say that comparing it to Northstar is wrong, but I swear the later has some kind of discount for families and might do that or am I going crazy and they have never offered any service like that.

[Bakken2016]

Assuming the extra dollars go to purchasing trainsets, in lieu of renting, does that effectively reduce the ongoing operating costs? I'm hoping they can leverage that into either lower fares, or banking an operational profit margin to pay for future (speed) improvements.

Lower fares are needed. With $35 tickets which is what I've been hearing a family of 4 would be paying around $280 for a round trip. Ticket's shouldn't be more than $20

I know someone is gonna say that comparing it to Northstar is wrong, but I swear the later has some kind of discount for families and might do that or am I going crazy and they have never offered any service like that.

Yes, the Northstar offered Family Discount Passes pre pandemic.