Blue Line Extension - Bottineau LRT

[trigonalmayhem]

Or just bury the tracks under 4th and avoid the whole mess of downtown stoplights.

[Nathan]

Or just bury the tracks under 4th and avoid the whole mess of downtown stoplights.

No no no no no Is there no limit to the pocket picking of local tax money that transit fans expect? Especially after they've dumped all that money into it.

[trigonalmayhem]

Because stadiums that enrich billionaires and public transit that serves working people are totally the same thing.

[Nathan]

For posting so much annoying snark, you seem to have a hard time recognizing it.

[trigonalmayhem]

Today's not my finest day for sussing out intent.

[mattaudio]

Speaking of stadiums and LRT, though, it is really a huge missed opportunity with excavating below grade for the bowls of Target Field and US Bank Stadium and moving streets/utilities/etc, that we didn't make use of that disruption and effort to build approaches/portals for future grade separation across downtown from stadium to stadium.

[Mikey]

Except they didn't really excavate for Target Field - I think the field is only a couple feet lower than the old rapid parking lot pavement. After all, it used to be part of the train yard

[MNdible]

And with the Vikings Stadium, I'd say that it still makes more sense to bring the masses from any below grade transit up to the plaza rather than directly into the stadium.

[mattaudio]

The excavation would be for the portal and grade change, which takes a significant distance of room, not for a station.

[MNdible]

I guess we've had this conversation before, but any effort to preemptively dig a portal for an as-yet undesigned (and unfunded) underground transit system is almost certain to end in folly. (Even though you've got the whole thing designed in your head and you could tell them exactly how to build it.)

[RailBaronYarr]

So the missed opportunity wasn't that they didn't just dig out/build the portal, it's that we haven't even had the conversation about an E-W tunnel at a city or regional level even though we knew there would more than likely be 2 lines by 2015 up and running, with 2 extensions built at some point in the future. Maybe it doesn't pencil out, but the fact that no studies exist (do they?) is pretty sad. If a study was on the table that showed a reasonable cost/benefit ratio, even if it wasn't funded, you'd think they could have justified the portals (which, in turn, would help justify building the actual tunnel).

[HiawathaGuy]

So the missed opportunity wasn't that they didn't just dig out/build the portal, it's that we haven't even had the conversation about an E-W tunnel at a city or regional level even though we knew there would more than likely be 2 lines by 2015 up and running, with 2 extensions built at some point in the future. Maybe it doesn't pencil out, but the fact that no studies exist (do they?) is pretty sad. If a study was on the table that showed a reasonable cost/benefit ratio, even if it wasn't funded, you'd think they could have justified the portals (which, in turn, would help justify building the actual tunnel).

A bit off-topic for this thread, but Metro Transit concluded that the two extensions won't 'increase' trains downtown. Which means the need to study this really isn't needed. At some point, as ridership increases and headway is reduced - there will certainly need to be a more serious conversation about it. But if this corridor can handle the existing train cars, then the Green and Blue extensions really don't mean this should be sent underground. Nor should we spend precious transit dollars, to the tune of several hundred million dollars, building portals for that need. Especially when we can't fund a $17M park adjacent to one of the stations. I know, different pots of money. But, just saying.

I'm all for moving the rail underground at some point - but if lights can be tweaked, it makes sense to leave well enough along.

[MNdible]

I read Nick's column that essentially argued this same point, and I think it's not surprising the way things played out. It would have been hard to justify the need for this tunnel before the LRT were actually up and running. Yes, it's easy to point now and say, how come everybody didn't see this coming? Especially since this forum is basically built to allow people to say that.

But, seriously, how much money would you spend studying a tunnel that you weren't sure was going to be needed? And even if you, as somebody who had deep thoughts about transit, were pretty sure it would be needed, how do you convince the public that this makes sense?

Anyway, even if we had done that, the thing would still be designed, at most, to the 1% engineering stage. And as we've seen, things can and do change a lot between 1% and 100% engineering. And even if we had built it, and somehow had managed to build exactly the right portal, it would still be this weird pre-built thing that would be hanging around for years before it's useful, and it probably wouldn't have saved us that much money anyway.

So yes, let's start planning for this tunnel (or these tunnels) through downtown right now, but maybe not spend another moment wringing our hands about the great lost opportunity to save not very much money by building the portal at the same time as the stadium.

[FISHMANPET]

Kinda reminds me of something I read about the Silver Line extension in Washington DC, when the system was built they planned for the Silver line so while they had the area where the Blue and Silver lines would split, they drove some piles for the Silver Line, and then buried them. 30 or 40 years later, nobody can find the technical drawings for those pilings, so they had to excavate one of them to test it to see how much weight it could support. Still probably cheaper than re excavating the entire area to place the pilings now, but still kind of an interesting thought about how even the best laid plans...

[mattaudio]

I understand. But at the same time look how many ghost ramps were built all over for freeways that never happened. Yet occasionally ghost ramps or secured ROW exploit the sunk cost fallacy and get people to think about finishing up a project planned decades before (think 610 or Stillwater bridge). If we're going to exploit the sunk cost fallacy, I'd rather have it be for the good of transit instead of freeways.

[Nick]

***because it came up, I should note that I have said in the past that the decision to not build a tunnel downtown in 2001 or whatever makes sense given what was known and expected then, and I probably should have noted that in the post.

[Archiapolis]

I read Nick's column that essentially argued this same point, and I think it's not surprising the way things played out. It would have been hard to justify the need for this tunnel before the LRT were actually up and running. Yes, it's easy to point now and say, how come everybody didn't see this coming? Especially since this forum is basically built to allow people to say that.

But, seriously, how much money would you spend studying a tunnel that you weren't sure was going to be needed? And even if you, as somebody who had deep thoughts about transit, were pretty sure it would be needed, how do you convince the public that this makes sense?

Anyway, even if we had done that, the thing would still be designed, at most, to the 1% engineering stage. And as we've seen, things can and do change a lot between 1% and 100% engineering. And even if we had built it, and somehow had managed to build exactly the right portal, it would still be this weird pre-built thing that would be hanging around for years before it's useful, and it probably wouldn't have saved us that much money anyway.

So yes, let's start planning for this tunnel (or these tunnels) through downtown right now, but maybe not spend another moment wringing our hands about the great lost opportunity to save not very much money by building the portal at the same time as the stadium.

This is well-said and is reasonable (as opposed to "best laid plans" [that sometimes have unintended consequences] and "pie in the sky" dreams of urbanists).

[mattaudio]

Seattle built a downtown transit tunnel two decades before their downtown saw LRT. They used it for buses.

[Archiapolis]

Seattle built a downtown transit tunnel two decades before their downtown saw LRT. They used it for buses.

I get it. I think you are an idealist (I think I fit in that category as well).

When it works AND (<--can't put enough emphasis there) the political will exists to do this kind of long-range planning it can be a great outcome BUT, there are unintended consequences sometimes and failures and times when this kind of long-term planning doesn't work. It just needs to be acknowledged...

[HiawathaGuy]

Seattle built a downtown transit tunnel two decades before their downtown saw LRT. They used it for buses.

They are also extending their LRT (3.1 miles) as a subway to Capitol Hill ($2Billion), and building their Alaskan Way Viaduct (2 miles) as a tunnel ($4.25Billion). I'm not sure how or who they are in bed with at the Federal level, but it's CRAZY how much Federal money they have gotten for projects there! Even their original LRT line from SEATAC to downtown... I mean - miles of bridges, tunneling through a mountain! Sound Transit and WSDOT seem to know how to work it!


Plus State lawmakers in Washington gave Sound Transit the green light to put a $15Billion referendum on next year's ballot, for further extensions. http://q13fox.com/2015/07/07/sound-tran ... expansion/

Maybe MetCouncil and MNDOT can take notes?