Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

[DanPatchToget]

With how massive Cedar Avenue and the east-west arterials that cross it in Apple Valley are you'd think there would be dozens of buildings like the Wings Financial Credit Union clustered along there. Good example of what happens when you have and keep building auto-oriented development and at the same time have a booming population. So you're left with a few options on how to improve traffic conditions:
1) Status quo: Try to pave your way out of congestion.
2) Status quo but with transit thrown in: Build "transit stations" with skyways over your car sewers and try to have high frequency bus service along those car sewers but the buses mostly run empty.
3) The most expensive, radical, and hard-to-swallow: Make sweeping changes to road design and zoning so then at least there's growing pockets of areas that are pedestrian-friendly and have demand for high-frequency transit (in theory).

[mattaudio]

20 years ago there were studies of extending the freeway from 140th St south to 160th St or beyond. Alas, the stroad remained.

[DanPatchToget]

https://m.startribune.com/the-red-line- ... 600320815/

I completely forgot the Red Line’s 10th anniversary was this past June. I used to advocate improving it with better frequency, more and better stations, etc., but now I support shutting it down and replacing it with improved local service from the MVTA. Something like two local routes serving the western and eastern areas along the Cedar Avenue Corridor are much more likely to bring people close to their destinations whereas the Red Line drops you off next to a car sewer.

[Mdcastle]

Is anyone shocked that "the laptop toting masses" never materialized? You don't tote a laptop to work at the Mall of America Abercrombie and Fitch store, and if you're working downtown, you don't take the Red Line because it doesn't go there. You take a commuter express service or else just drive yourself.

[thespeedmccool]

It would be the easiest thing in the world to send Red Line trips to downtown Minneapolis now, stopping at 46th and Lake and using Orange Line infrastructure. Something tells me we'd need a decade long environmental process to do that though .

If that means we'd have to halve the frequency on the Cedar Avenue portion of the line, so be it. Improving frequencies on 35W to downtown is probably much more efficient than continuing to run a shuttle between County Highway 42 and the Mall.

Better yet, let's make the Red Line an aBRT service. Run it from Apple Valley to Washington Avenue downtown via Cedar Avenue through South Minneapolis.

IDK, the Red Line is such a perverse consequence of how transit planning was done 15 years ago (not that it's gotten much better.) I would honestly support mothballing it too if we can use "Red" for the Riverview corridor.

[Nick]

“If you keep doing things that are a bad idea, it may eventually be a problem”

- Me in 2013

“Shut. Up!”

- everyone in charge of anything in 2013

[Tcmetro]

MVTA has been improving the 475 to the point that it runs hourly midday now. Improving that more might be an even better solution than the Red Line as it gives a direct connection that skips the MOA stop.

[Trademark]

The Red Line had the second most ridership of any MVTA route in 2021. Infill stations at Palomino, and Cliff, and extending it North to Downtown while adding a station on 66th street in Richfield would make so much sense. It needs better connecting service, but putting higher frequency on one of the few bridges that cross the Minnesota River will always make sense.

If MVTA would invest in better frequency instead of cutting regular route service for microtransit (only one of their routes has better than hourly frequency), and having a goal of expanding that microtransit by 350% over the next few years we would probably see better numbers. Comparing ridership in Hennepin County and Dakota County doesn't make sense, but that doesn't mean that the Red Line is a mistake.

[thespeedmccool]

The Red Line had the second most ridership of any MVTA route in 2021.

Oh, ok, then MVTA shouldn't exist.

[Trademark]

The Red Line had the second most ridership of any MVTA route in 2021.

Oh, ok, then MVTA shouldn't exist.

Agreed, but for other reasons.

Ridership is not the primary metric for a transit agency. The Twin Cities have a sprawling metro that needs coverage. There are still transit dependent people, and jobs that people want to access in Dakota County. An hourly bus does a terrible job of doing that and will not drive ridership besides those that need it.

[thespeedmccool]

The Red Line had the second most ridership of any MVTA route in 2021.

Oh, ok, then MVTA shouldn't exist.

Agreed, but for other reasons.

Ridership is not the primary metric for a transit agency. The Twin Cities have a sprawling metro that needs coverage. There are still transit dependent people, and jobs that people want to access in Dakota County. An hourly bus does a terrible job of doing that and will not drive ridership besides those that need it.

Oh I agree, I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek.

But I do think that the fact a 344 passenger per day service is their number two money maker is a sign that maybe the transit service run by suburban city councils is a terrible way to organize transit. I don't mean to suggest, however, that there should be no bus service in Dakota and Scott counties.

[Trademark]

Oh, ok, then MVTA shouldn't exist.

Agreed, but for other reasons.

Ridership is not the primary metric for a transit agency. The Twin Cities have a sprawling metro that needs coverage. There are still transit dependent people, and jobs that people want to access in Dakota County. An hourly bus does a terrible job of doing that and will not drive ridership besides those that need it.

Oh I agree, I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek.

But I do think that the fact a 344 passenger per day service is their number two money maker is a sign that maybe the transit service run by suburban city councils is a terrible way to organize transit. I don't mean to suggest, however, that there should be no bus service in Dakota and Scott counties.

I'm a big believer in opt-outs. So no argument from me. By the way, the number 1 ridership bus for MVTA is the 444.

[Tcmetro]

The 442 and 444 also serve MOA to Cedar Grove (and stop adjacent to the mall instead of in the freeway median). 442 also stops at Palomino Hills which has a few apartments and trailer parks nearby. The 140th St Station seems really poorly placed for where riders would be coming from. 147th and AVTS are in fine locations, but everything is so car oriented. Also these areas are primarily retail which is generally going to attract people locally, not from MOA or Cedar Grove.

[StandishGuy]

Huh, ridership shouldn't be a primary metric of a transit agency? The Red Line cost $115 million to build in 2013 dollars and now has fewer than 350 riders per day. There's got to be some connections to spending millions of dollars and the number of people who will ride the service. Maybe this region needs to stop constructing expensive transit to places that provide evidence with ridership data that they are not places where transit works. On the other hand, Metro Transit continues to run buses in South Minneapolis at 1 hour headways (Routes 7, 23, etc.). It sucks, and it's irritating that most of the transit expansion of this region continues to be focused on suburban places- Green & Blue Line extensions, Gold & Purple Lines, etc. Yet, Metro Transit can't get bus frequencies in the densest part of the region above one an hour.

[Bakken2016]

Huh, ridership shouldn't be a primary metric of a transit agency? The Red Line cost $115 million to build in 2013 dollars and now has fewer than 350 riders per day. There's got to be some connections to spending millions of dollars and the number of people who will ride the service. Maybe this region needs to stop constructing expensive transit to places that provide evidence with ridership data that they are not places where transit works. On the other hand, Metro Transit continues to run buses in South Minneapolis at 1 hour headways (Routes 7, 23, etc.). It sucks, and it's irritating that most of the transit expansion of this region continues to be focused on suburban places- Green & Blue Line extensions, Gold & Purple Lines, etc. Yet, Metro Transit can't get bus frequencies in the densest part of the region above one an hour.

7 and 23 service is back to half hour service on weekdays, also the Red Line is operated by TransDev so it’s a different pool of operators. Would love to see weekend service back to 30 mins though.

I agree with you on parts of the suburban expansion, but the Blue Line extension is now going to hit some of the most dense areas of Minneapolis. The Green Line extension hits high ridership areas of St Louis Park and Hopkins. Gold hits a lot of the east side of St Paul, the Woodbury portion is awful though. And Purple is being rerouted via White Bear Ave where all the density is.

aBRT expansion has 5 lines in different stages, which all hit very high density areas.

Red Line infrastructure only cost $21 million, the remaining cost was roadway improvements.


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[Trademark]

Huh, ridership shouldn't be a primary metric of a transit agency? The Red Line cost $115 million to build in 2013 dollars and now has fewer than 350 riders per day. There's got to be some connections to spending millions of dollars and the number of people who will ride the service. Maybe this region needs to stop constructing expensive transit to places that provide evidence with ridership data that they are not places where transit works. On the other hand, Metro Transit continues to run buses in South Minneapolis at 1 hour headways (Routes 7, 23, etc.). It sucks, and it's irritating that most of the transit expansion of this region continues to be focused on suburban places- Green & Blue Line extensions, Gold & Purple Lines, etc. Yet, Metro Transit can't get bus frequencies in the densest part of the region above one an hour.

Capitol cost, and operation costs are different, and at the time capitol construction costs were regional. So that $21 million had to be spent in Dakota County regardless. Where would you invest that money that's only for new construction in that region? Maybe Orange Line or CR-42 BRT? More park and rides? You could make arguments for those, but none of them are slam dunks and they'd likely only get marginally more ridership than the Red Line.

As for operations, the 30, 67, 70, 75, 83 all had lower ridership than the Red Line in 2021, should those routes be cut? We do need better service in the city, but part of the calculation of deciding where to cut routes has to include coverage in addition to ridership. In south Mpls along the 23, and 7 you are usually (not always) close to another route like the 9, 74, A, Blue, 22, D, 5, 14, 18, 11, 4, 6 and 21. I'm not saying it's optimal to have only hourly frequency. But this is what happens when you only have 72% of your pre-covid operators. Every region is experiencing cuts. Compare that to MVTA territory where you could easily be more than a mile or 2 from a bus that only runs once per hour with no alternatives.

The only expansion that you could argue is focused on suburban locations is the Green Line Extension. While the other routes continue out to the suburbs, that isn't the focus of their routes even though it will provide great access for people. It doesn't make sense to stop the Blue Line at North Memorial and force a linear transfer to Robbinsdale and Brooklyn Park, or stop the Purple Line at Maryland/White Bear and force a transfer to Maplewood.

Serving the suburbs better will continue to become an even more urgent issue as the suburbanization of poverty continues. More people are already moving out to the suburbs for affordable rent. Should we doom them to car dependency and no transit because they live in an environment that's not conducive to high ridership? How does that move us forward to our climate goals? You have to balance these considerations.

[Trademark]

Huh, ridership shouldn't be a primary metric of a transit agency? The Red Line cost $115 million to build in 2013 dollars and now has fewer than 350 riders per day. There's got to be some connections to spending millions of dollars and the number of people who will ride the service. Maybe this region needs to stop constructing expensive transit to places that provide evidence with ridership data that they are not places where transit works. On the other hand, Metro Transit continues to run buses in South Minneapolis at 1 hour headways (Routes 7, 23, etc.). It sucks, and it's irritating that most of the transit expansion of this region continues to be focused on suburban places- Green & Blue Line extensions, Gold & Purple Lines, etc. Yet, Metro Transit can't get bus frequencies in the densest part of the region above one an hour.

7 and 23 service is back to half hour service on weekdays, also the Red Line is operated by TransDev so it’s a different pool of operators. Would love to see weekend service back to 30 mins though.

I agree with you on parts of the suburban expansion, but the Blue Line extension is now going to hit some of the most dense areas of Minneapolis. The Green Line extension hits high ridership areas of St Louis Park and Hopkins. Gold hits a lot of the east side of St Paul, the Woodbury portion is awful though. And Purple is being rerouted via White Bear Ave where all the density is.

aBRT expansion has 5 lines in different stages, which all hit very high density areas.

Red Line infrastructure only cost $21 million, the remaining cost was roadway improvements.


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The Woodbury section will be alright if Woodbury is serious about redeveloping the terminus for transit oriented development. I have my doubts though. Imo, it should have gone down Hudson to Woodbury drive

[thespeedmccool]

Huh, ridership shouldn't be a primary metric of a transit agency? The Red Line cost $115 million to build in 2013 dollars and now has fewer than 350 riders per day. There's got to be some connections to spending millions of dollars and the number of people who will ride the service. Maybe this region needs to stop constructing expensive transit to places that provide evidence with ridership data that they are not places where transit works. On the other hand, Metro Transit continues to run buses in South Minneapolis at 1 hour headways (Routes 7, 23, etc.). It sucks, and it's irritating that most of the transit expansion of this region continues to be focused on suburban places- Green & Blue Line extensions, Gold & Purple Lines, etc. Yet, Metro Transit can't get bus frequencies in the densest part of the region above one an hour.

7 and 23 service is back to half hour service on weekdays, also the Red Line is operated by TransDev so it’s a different pool of operators. Would love to see weekend service back to 30 mins though.

I agree with you on parts of the suburban expansion, but the Blue Line extension is now going to hit some of the most dense areas of Minneapolis. The Green Line extension hits high ridership areas of St Louis Park and Hopkins. Gold hits a lot of the east side of St Paul, the Woodbury portion is awful though. And Purple is being rerouted via White Bear Ave where all the density is.

aBRT expansion has 5 lines in different stages, which all hit very high density areas.

Red Line infrastructure only cost $21 million, the remaining cost was roadway improvements.


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The Woodbury section will be alright if Woodbury is serious about redeveloping the terminus for transit oriented development. I have my doubts though. Imo, it should have gone down Hudson to Woodbury drive

I regret to inform you that Woodbury is not serious. They're building a Top Golf and a Dave and Busters ripoff at Tamarack, and after "resident feedback" (they want to save their non-chain movie theatre) they're not planning for any mixed use or additional residential at Queens.

I'll still defend the Woodbury portion as being only pretty bad, but it's pretty bad.

[DanPatchToget]

As I drove by the Premium Outlet Mall on Highway 13 this afternoon I noticed all the roads around the mall were completely backed up. Made me wonder if the Red Line and the other routes that serve Cedar Grove had any uptick in ridership for today.