Nicollet-Central Streetcar

[mattaudio]

They just need to move more peak buses to east-west streets downtown, and free up capacity on Marq2- seems like a no brainer to me. Anyone know why express routes approaching downtown via 35W from the north or 394 from the west can't use an east-west spine?

[twincitizen]

Because we haven't built one?

[MNdible]

Also, I think there's a nice clarity to having local buses on Nicollet and expresses on Marq2. Surely there are some operational things we can do to improve the flow along Nicollet, right?

[Tcmetro]

If/when Nicollet Streetcar happens, perhaps bus tickets can be purchased at the TVMs as well. Otherwise, I'm not sure what else can be done to improve flow.

As for the Marq/2nd bus lanes, service to the south (35W) and west (394) are what need to be adjusted to east-west service. These corridors heavily outweigh the north (94 and 35W) with regards to bus volumes.

Perhaps some 394 service (maybe the opt-outs, SW and Plymouth) could be adjusted to using 6th and 9th in Downtown Minneapolis.

If we want the Mall to be bus free, perhaps Nicollet and Central BRT and the #17 and #25 bus can use the Marq/2nd lanes, and the #11 can move to Hennepin. This would of course be after Nic-Central Streetcar is long enough to replace the local bus services on those streets.

[RailBaronYarr]

They just need to move more peak buses to east-west streets downtown, and free up capacity on Marq2- seems like a no brainer to me. Anyone know why express routes approaching downtown via 35W from the north or 394 from the west can't use an east-west spine?

Because we haven't built one?

The E-W transit spine study done by the city rejected the idea of dedicated bus lanes. They said it would impact vehicle traffic too much. Which is why I got a little huffy over Nathan's comment (apologies!).

[twincitizen]

Adding TVMs for the streetcar will help a ton. That way even cash-payers can buy their bus pass before they board. I'd expect the wheelchair lift to be deployed a whole lot less on the buses, with mobility impaired folks choosing to use the streetcar (except those traveling beyond the starter line, of course)

Assuming the status quo (keeping buses on Nicollet Mall), a number of things can still be done to improve the situation:

*Certainly one of the Route 11, 17, or 25 could move to Hennepin. (for sure the 25, right? It runs on Hennepin Ave east of the river!)

*With the streetcar running, do Routes 10 and 18 need to run all the way through downtown?? Could they possibly turn off the Mall sooner? I realize that the 18 lays over in Gateway Ramp, and the 10 lays over in Leamington Ramp, so this would require some serious re-structuring. This idea isn't quite ready for prime time.

I don't think Marq2 is a great fit for local service. Long term, I'd actually prefer to put a local route on 3rd Avenue over using Marq2. As downtown grows eastward, having a local route on 3rd is pretty logical. The Route 11 is the best fit, since it runs on 3rd Avenue south of downtown anyways. I've actually heard a rumor that the Orange Line could possibly wind up on 3rd Avenue instead of Marq2. Not saying it's going to happen, I'm just saying it's an idea, and I'm not opposed to it. Remember that some Marq2 stops do not have shelters/heat...they actually use the building lobby for waiting area (e.g. Wells Fargo Tower) and that is not available 24/7.

BIG IDEA ALERT:

Is Route 17 really even that necessary? (between the river & Uptown Transit Station I mean, obviously the outer portions are necessary). With the addition of Southwest LRT (to serve West Calhoun / inner SLP) AND this streetcar line, I think the entire "river to Uptown" portion of the 17 should be re-evaluated (i.e. eliminated & service hours reallocated). Increased service on the 6 and 4 could easily make up for the subtraction of the 24th Street service. Ideally, both Lyndale and Hennepin will be overlaid with aBRT, while Nicollet will have the streetcar.

[EOst]

I think the only one of those which could move to Hennepin is the 25, but even that's problematic, since it would probably involve getting rid of its run through central Loring Park. That might be justified, but it has a decent constituency.

The 17 is the only bus that runs along 24th, and really speeds the trip between Loring/Stevens/n. Whittier and Uptown. Without it, you'd have to take the 2 to the 6 (kinda dicey, and service on Franklin ends up being very unreliable) or the 18 to Lake, which works alright but ends up being a not-so-pleasant transfer thanks to the Nicollet/Lake situation. It would also mean that someone at eg. 25th and Pleasant would find themselves pretty far away from any bus service, which isn't ideal.

How close to capacity is 7th/8th? Most people on the 10 seem to get off around there; maybe it could be diverted to run on Hennepin to there, and then run on them to 3rd (where it could go to the CC and terminate).

[Nick]

Also, I think there's a nice clarity to having local buses on Nicollet and expresses on Marq2. Surely there are some operational things we can do to improve the flow along Nicollet, right?

What if we like...got rid of the N-S traffic lights and let buses flow whenever there was no traffic coming E-W? I tried to get a picture of this being an issue this afternoon but couldn't in 15 minutes of trying, so maybe not really that helpful.

[Chava]

Sounds like that subway would solve this very problem.

[grant1simons2]

How would a Subway even work? I can't see where it would have enough room to go underground... I guess it could drop down off of the bridge over Nicollet but then where would it pop back up? It sounds like a wonderful idea but then they'd have to work on a Subway study instead of a streetcar study. That will take another 3 years. Then there will have to be a plan set in place which will take another 2 years. Approval, complaints, city stuff, contracts, engineering. That's another year. Plus a final 3 years or so of construction. So that's looking at a 2025 opening. 6 years later than what we could do for a streetcar right now. There could be post construction studies, what if we put the streetcar underground and what not

[Chava]

I'm not sure. Nick just said we should do it, he didn't leave us any clues how to do so. I'm sure there plenty of well informed people here who might be able to tell us how it might work.

Sure, it would be a lot of work, but all good transit projects take time. And there is nothing easy about transit planning. Make no little plans, right?

[Tcmetro]

The current funding paradigm couldn't handle such a large project anyways.

If we want to be serious about subways, we have to convince the Met Council, etc, that they are necessary, and get them in the next TPP. That's a major shift in policy and culture and could take a decade or so to do.

In all honesty, it's something that I don't see happening here. Rapid transit expansion is hardly even moving in NY, LA, SF, and Chicago. I think our network is ok, certainly not as bad as the 8-line suburban rail network in Denver. Well I would like to see a more rapid proposal for transit service here, I think if we adopt some more radical planning ideas (like removing traffic on Hennepin to Uptown) could make streetcars and buses a lot more attractive and fast.

[Chava]

Does a single illegally parked car on the track effectively shut down the street car? At least until tow truck arrives?

[web]

probably. sure happens with the cable cars in sf.....ususally the driver rings his bell and the passengers start yelling and once pushed a small car the 2 feet that the car was on the track.

[grant1simons2]

Just get one of these!

[woofner]

The current funding paradigm couldn't handle such a large project anyways.

If we want to be serious about subways, we have to convince the Met Council, etc, that they are necessary, and get them in the next TPP. That's a major shift in policy and culture and could take a decade or so to do.

Seattle's $4b University-Northgate LRT is an example of how a subway could be built under the current funding paradigm: break the project into two parts and build them essentially simultaneously. That's what commenters here have advocated should happen with Bottineau, and it could have been done with SWLRT (picture a $1b Downtown-Uptown subway with a $500m suburban tail to Eden Prairie).

The politics is the problem here, in which the agency with transit planning responsibilities has essentially refused to plan for higher-capacity transit, so counties have picked up the slack and done so with more of an eye towards suburban service than is likely justified.

By 2040 we'll have well over a hundred thousand daily riders of LRT in the Twin Cities, and I'm guessing that will be a formidable constituency for grade separation downtown. I'd speculate that the Orange Line between Downtown & Lake St will be a good candidate for subway-like improvements, too, since it will be a good-quality line-haul line that basically skips over a destination-rich inner city area.

[xandrex]

City officials stated that taking current bus traffic off of Nicollet was not an option at the Nicollet Mile redesign presentation. It's been stated many times that the other n/s streets are at a capacity that it wouldn't be possible to re-route busses there *dead horse

I mean, only at capacity for like 2 hours a day. There are many things city officials could do to reduce the demand for driving at peak hours (ex. pricing their parking ramps higher) to say nothing of the natural shift in when traffic would enter downtown. 21.5% of people working downtown (including North Loop, Loring Park, DTE, but not across the river) live in Minneapolis. I would wager a solid chunk of those are currently choosing to drive, at peak times. Those folks have viable alternatives they're not exploring today.

How tapped out is the market of Minneapolis residents heading downtown, especially those north of, say, Lake Street, and south of Broadway? Between those two streets, you can get pretty competitive bus/rail service into downtown with regard to time. When I drive downtown (which I happened to do today), it's not because it's quicker. It's actually slightly more time because I park at Ramp C, versus getting off the bus on Hennepin. I drive downtown only when I need to get somewhere right after work or the like.

With 40 percent of downtown workers reaching their jobs by means other than SOV, I have to imagine the percentage of Minneapolis residents doing so is probably higher (with the suburban percentage slightly lower). North of Broadway and south of Lake, you really need to add more fast service to capture more of those people.

Because of that (clearly I enjoy rambling before reaching my point), I wonder if targeting inner-ring suburbanites might be a better option if you're trying to shift bus traffic to places like Hennepin. They have park and ride options, of course, and those who choose to drive seem much more likely to be clogging up local streets (I'm thinking of places like SLP or Golden Valley) because peak-time highway driving doesn't yield nearly the same benefit as someone further out. But maybe I'm really off?

[mattaudio]

^I think we need to work more on the job-location mix rather than the the transit accessibility of housing. Transit to housing will follow. But right now we make it way too easy to drive to a suburban job for most people.

[HiawathaGuy]

Just get one of these!

Grant, that's a large snow blower, not a TBM.

[acs]

Just get one of these!

Grant, that's a large snow blower, not a TBM.

Even more useful then.